general confusion

[mozart]

This site has been a great source of information for me, but I am embarrassed to say that there is a fundamental point I still don't get. I don't bring this up to start a flame war.

I use synthetic oils (PP, Quakerstate, Castrol Syntec) mainly because it makes me feel good to do my own oil changes and get a higher quality oil for less than what it would cost to pay someone else.

However, I've heard most non-PAO oils are not "true" synthetics. So here's my confusion. Better additive packages aside, I don't really understand what is better about non PAO synthetics compared to conventional dino oil.

Is there something better about refining the oil more? Is there higher film strength, better cold starts??? what is it in plain terms that I'm getting when I buy PP, Syntec or Synpower for example?

Thanks in advance

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: mozart
This site has been a great source of information for me, but I am embarrassed to say that there is a fundamental point I still don't get. I don't bring this up to start a flame war.

I use synthetic oils (PP, Quakerstate, Castrol Syntec) mainly because it makes me feel good to do my own oil changes and get a higher quality oil for less than what it would cost to pay someone else.

However, I've heard most non-PAO oils are not "true" synthetics. So here's my confusion. Better additive packages aside, I don't really understand what is better about non PAO synthetics compared to conventional dino oil.

Is there something better about refining the oil more? Is there higher film strength, better cold starts??? what is it in plain terms that I'm getting when I buy PP, Syntec or Synpower for example?

Thanks in advance


It's a difficult concept to understand, and an even harder one to explain. Don't worry, you aren't alone

From what I understand, Group III oils are more highly refined, and result in lower paraffin content, and more consistent molecule size, lower contaminants and better consistency compared to their group II "dino" counterparts. They seem to be more shear resistant, and have better cold start properties.

 

[tomcat27]

rudolphna pretty much hit it - the extra refining, or isomerization, allows them to remove some of the less desirable components from the base stocks.

 

[CourierDriver]

I for one do not care if someone runs T-Rex oil or Mobil ONE oil. I just want one of the best so I use M1 oil. Now that said, we use to run 200,000 plus miles on ancient oil made in the 1960's and guess what, I don't have any of those cars today. We or who keeps a car forever and what is the definition of forever in auto ownership in terms of time? I buy used cars or vans. Right now I use a van for delivery work and run the snit out of it. If I had an everyday go to work and come home car, dino would be fine. PS.......I think we are straining a camel thru a straw in here over oil sometimes. Lets all don't work so hard over molecules,atoms,groups, and shears and cold starts, the wheel was invented years ago, lets stop making it more round, may we all rest in peace. Note: mmo , cream , and sugar dont mix in ur coffee,lol...........

 

[Nick R]

Quote:
he wheel was invented years ago, lets stop making it more round, may we all rest in peace


Dude, this is probably one of the best lines ever spoken on this site. Ever. Period.

 

[tomcat27]

of course we are splitting hairs here! "analysis paralysis"!

with that being said, I myslef have had to have engines rebuilt before their time, as have some of my friends. in some cases, the cause is obvious ( 2.5 years on a single dino oil change ) in some case, I have no idea. (why did my Jeep 4.0 need to be rebuilt at 125k? I treated it lovingly and changed the oil every 3k) was it because I bought it used? was it a faulty repair just before the engine failure? (the oil pan was replaced due to rust just 200 miles before engine failure) up to that point, the motor made no unusual noises and used no oil. ???

 

[CourierDriver]

Now that is weird, sounds like one those mysteries of engine failures.

 

[jorton]

Originally Posted By: rudolphna
Originally Posted By: mozart
This site has been a great source of information for me, but I am embarrassed to say that there is a fundamental point I still don't get. I don't bring this up to start a flame war.

I use synthetic oils (PP, Quakerstate, Castrol Syntec) mainly because it makes me feel good to do my own oil changes and get a higher quality oil for less than what it would cost to pay someone else.

However, I've heard most non-PAO oils are not "true" synthetics. So here's my confusion. Better additive packages aside, I don't really understand what is better about non PAO synthetics compared to conventional dino oil.

Is there something better about refining the oil more? Is there higher film strength, better cold starts??? what is it in plain terms that I'm getting when I buy PP, Syntec or Synpower for example?

Thanks in advance


It's a difficult concept to understand, and an even harder one to explain. Don't worry, you aren't alone

From what I understand, Group III oils are more highly refined, and result in lower paraffin content, and more consistent molecule size, lower contaminants and better consistency compared to their group II "dino" counterparts. They seem to be more shear resistant, and have better cold start properties.


GIII is higher viscosity index base than dino which means it's blended with less viscosity index improver additive(VII is not a lubricant). Some folks like Chevron Supreme and Chevron Delo 400 because it's GII+ which has VI between GII and GIII, and it's priced less than some dinos.

Synthetic does not make stronger anti-wear film than dino. That's a function of the additive package.

 

[mechtech2]

mozart - What are your getting with full synth engine oils?
Longer oil drains, for sure.
At EXTREME temperatures, like Arctic conditions and high heat from turbochargers or some racing, full synths have real advantages.

For normal civilians, the main benefit by far is from longer oil change intervals.

 

[mozart]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
mozart - What are your getting with full synth engine oils?
Longer oil drains, for sure.
At EXTREME temperatures, like Arctic conditions and high heat from turbochargers or some racing, full synths have real advantages.

For normal civilians, the main benefit by far is from longer oil change intervals.


So if you're not extending your intervals the synthetics there's no benefit?

I think one common factor with synthetics is the additive packages are beefed up to the point that the cleaning ability is greater.

 

[ottotheclown]

As I have said before, if because you drive in severe areas, you need 3,000 oci and therefore dino will work well, not wasting a benefit of syn. oil. Also though the add packs are better than dino oil that difference is not worth the extra cost in 3,000 oci.Syn. has its own space and use, dino has the same. If you drive in Ogden Utah your needs differ than if you drive in Astoria Queens NY> whew.

 

[mozart]

Sigh...I have to say I'm still confused

I am not sure just what is a synthetic oil these days

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: mozart
So if you're not extending your intervals the synthetics there's no benefit?

Pretty much, unless you have a turbocharged engine that sees extremely high temps, in which case you'd probably benefit from synthetic oil regardless of interval.

Quote:

I think one common factor with synthetics is the additive packages are beefed up to the point that the cleaning ability is greater.

I'm not sure that's correct. The latest API SM limits the amounts of allowable additives, hence synthetics can't really have any more additives than mineral oils (for the simplicity argument).

That is not to say that the base oils in each group can't have different cleaning capabilities.