GC -> Porsche?

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
jpr - Porsche's lubricant TISBs on lubricants go back many years. MB's go back about 50 years that I know of
They have always taken precendence over whatever the API may have decreed at the time and of course ACEA is part of their way of life - they control the standards!!!

In the case of Porsche and Mobil - well, Shell was their lubricant supplier from the 1950s. The first synthetic Factory fill was Shell's TMO 10w30 for MY92 and then TMO 5w-40 from MY93

Mobil became the Factory's lubricant supplier shortly after

Mobil 1 0w-40 became the Factory fill from MY91 as I recall

Mobil 1 5w30, 10w30 (-30C to 40C) and 15w-50 (-30C to >40C) were in the MY99 TISB for M96 (Boxster & 911) engines. All 15w-?? and SAE30 lubricants were dropped from the >MY73 List in MY00

I can assure you that both Porsche and MB (and their component suppliers) use very skilled Mobil Lubricant Engineers in all engine development work (as do CAT and MTU Detroit Diesel and some others). Porsche's most "valuable" Engineers from "the old racing era" are very enthusiastic about the success of the present long standing "marriage"

Mobil's (in various guises) relationship with MB (Daimler, Benz, Maybach) goes back nearly a century!

 

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: glxpassat
Originally Posted By: jpr
Originally Posted By: glxpassat
It makes it 'appear' to me that the version we have is different and they are trying to lead people in the US to believe it's approved when it is may not be.
That supposition seems a little silly on the face of it. It's clearly been on the Porsche approval lists ever since they began in 2002. That covers both the SL forumulation, the early SM formulation, and the current SM formulation.


Then why doesn't it just state "Porsche Approved" on the bottle like it used to, as that's how it appears on the bottles outside of the US? On the PDS, it states "Porsche special oil list", why?

Why does the approval list show multiple versions of Castrol 5w-40 and only one version of Mobil 1 0w-40, when there are two?

It's simple if you look at the timelines -
* first comes Mobil 1 as SL and it gets Porsche approved
* then comes API SM, which as it turns out the existing SL formulation also meets so it is now officially an SM oil and it still meets Porsche specs
* Mobil updates the formula as a routine improvement effort, and now that oil is also API SM and is Porsche approved.

The difference in Porsche nomenclature also follows as Porsche develops their spec. BMW Longlife-98 oil did not exist until Longlife-01 came out. Prior that is was just "Longlife"

As for why their are multiple Castrol 5W40's on the list, that's because Castrol has their product line segmented that way. They are all referred to by the brand names, no mention is made of API or ACEA status.

 

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
jpr - Porsche's lubricant TISBs on lubricants go back many years. MB's go back about 50 years that I know of
They have always taken precendence over whatever the API may have decreed at the time and of course ACEA is part of their way of life - they control the standards!!!

In the case of Porsche and Mobil - well, Shell was their lubricant supplier from the 1950s. The first synthetic Factory fill was Shell's TMO 10w30 for MY92 and then TMO 5w-40 from MY93

Mobil became the Factory's lubricant supplier shortly after

Mobil 1 0w-40 became the Factory fill from MY91 as I recall

Mobil 1 5w30, 10w30 (-30C to 40C) and 15w-50 (-30C to >40C) were in the MY99 TISB for M96 (Boxster & 911) engines. All 15w-?? and SAE30 lubricants were dropped from the >MY73 List in MY00

I can assure you that both Porsche and MB (and their component suppliers) use very skilled Mobil Lubricant Engineers in all engine development work (as do CAT and MTU Detroit Diesel and some others). Porsche's most "valuable" Engineers from "the old racing era" are very enthusiastic about the success of the present long standing "marriage"

Mobil's (in various guises) relationship with MB (Daimler, Benz, Maybach) goes back nearly a century!

The TISB's no doubt go back many years, but the modern criteria only dates to 2002. The criteria prior to 2002 was simply ACEA A3 with a volatility of 12% or less. I'm not sure what, if anything beyond SAE grade they did before ACEA ratings came along in 1996

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
jpr - You are partly correct however their Test Protocol was not simply based on ACEA A3 with lessor volatility than 12%

Initially Porsche used HD lubricants in their aircooled engines for some decades - Shell's Rotella (Rimula in some Markets). This basic lubricant specification gave them some benefits such as high temperature stabilty, better retention of viscosity, excellent foaming control, minimised high/low temperature deposits (a real problem in the 1960s) and etc. This was very important with the dry sump engines used then due to the risk of cavitation and etc

They continued to be a little "suspicious" of multi-grade lubricants even when the 928 V8 came out in 1978 (20w-50 lubricants were introduced in 1959). They were then recommending 15w-50 and 20w-50 (but only above -15C) viscosites. They also especially endorsed SAE20 and SAE30 "single grade brand name heavy duty oil...."

From MY83 they were endorsing 10w-40 and 10w-50 lubricants and the two HD monogrades. It was clear they were confident that the lower "W" products were better for their engines

Porsche began endorsing "synthetic or hyrocracked" lubricants in 1987-8 - they endorsed these as "high lubricity oils", as "all season fuel economy oil" in the Porsche Approvals List of the time. These were in 10w30, 5w-40 and 5w-50 viscosities

ACEA's lubricant specifications were released in 1995 for application from March 1st 1996 - Porsche was part of this process from around 1994

Later (MY99) their selection criteria was based on:
Minimum Group 3 "hydrocracked" base fluid
ACEA A3-98 criteria plus;
11mm2/s kinematic viscosity at 100C
HTHS (CEC-L-36A-90 method) 3.5
12% volatility (NOACK @ 250C)
Porsche test "volume of air in oil" (foaming control)
120hrs engine test of oil stability in the case of 0w-40 and all SAE30 lubricants
They particularly sought 0w-?? and 5w-?? products
And etc.

This specification effectively removed all SAE30 lubricants from the List although Castrol SLX 0w30 (GC) had Approval until the product was withdrawn about 2000 under a cloud

The overall Test regime has since been refined

I hope this is of interest and to the best of my knowledge and information it is accurate

 

[buster]

Quote:
the Porsche 996FL Engine test. This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through: - 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving, - 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving, - 40 cold starts, - 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack, - 3.5 hours of “running-in” program Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter will be taken into account to grant the approval or not: - torque curve (internal friction), - oxidation of the oil, - Piston cleanliness and ring sticking, - Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 µm. - Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible. - Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.


LINK

 

[jpr]

Definitely good info from all - thanks for providing it.

Bringing it back to the Mobil 1 0W40 though, it basically seems to have been Porsche approved for it's entire lifetime. Which is why it seemed silly yo me to suggest that Mobil was trying to snooker the public with misleading information.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
jpr - Yes, and my viewpoint too. Mobil 1 0w-40 is a very sophisticated product with a substantial track record of OEM and end user satisfaction

It has been the Porsche factory fill since 2001

I was an original user of GC SLX 0w30 in a wide range of engines. It was first released here in 12/1996 (it was Porsche Approved then) and it was in one of my Ford V6 engines by 01/1997 courtesy of Castrol.
I converted a number of other engines to it from the excellent Castrol "R" 10w-60. Sadly it failed to live up to my, VW's and MB's expectations here in OZ

 

[glxpassat]

Originally Posted By: jpr

* first comes Mobil 1 as SL and it gets Porsche approved
* then comes API SM, which as it turns out the existing SL formulation also meets so it is now officially an SM oil and it still meets Porsche specs
* Mobil updates the formula as a routine improvement effort, and now that oil is also API SM and is Porsche approved.


It doesn't say "Porsche approved". It says it was approved in 2002, when it was an SL rated oil. Why doesn't the bottles exported out of the US refer to 2002?

I have posted links to two different SM versions of Mobil 1 0w-40. They have different viscosities and different verbage for Porsche. That should raise an eyebrow if drive a Porsche and live in the US. I think it's worth checking out is all.

 

[jpr]

I think it's a reading comprehension thing.

As you pointed out, the Canadian spec SM version appears to be exactly the same as the SL version. That suggests to me the only change in the oil was to the testing and not the oil.

Later. as Mobil continued to develop their product, they produced a new version of the 0W40, which got the SM rating as that was the current standard.

Both SL and SM versions are Porsche approved, not need to raise any eyebrows.

 

[glxpassat]

Doug, if you don't mind, what specific problems was GC causing in those motors? Did the bearings not hold up well with it? Thanks!

 

[glxpassat]

jpr, that's some great theories you have, but what if you are wrong? If I owned an expensive Porsche I would not blindly trust anyone and would ask all the questions I could just to be sure.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
glzpassat - I see where you are coming from but I believe that it is all ExxonMobil speak (wrong Internet data - it says VW503.01 in one place and not another, a minor HTHS variance and etc). It almost seems like some of the Blackstone people who write comments on their UOA results "moonlight" on the Mobil Webpage

There may well be small variances in formulation and between the NA and EC nomenclature but it will not be a lessor product because of it. Too much rests on the end result!

I have seen Mobil here withdraw a Delvac 1 variant from sale because MB withdrew one of two Approvals. Mobil then simply withdrew Delvac 1 SHC 5w-40 (a Euro version) from sale permanently! It caused a short supply here for some six months. The products were in effect identical and well within the API and ACEA formulation change criteria - but that was the end of it

 

[glxpassat]

Doug, I hope it's the Blackstone folks and nothing more!

Tim

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Tim - me too!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
In the case of Porsche and Mobil - well, Shell was their lubricant supplier from the 1950s. The first synthetic Factory fill was Shell's TMO 10w30 for MY92 and then TMO 5w-40 from MY93

Mobil became the Factory's lubricant supplier shortly after

Mobil 1 0w-40 became the Factory fill from MY91 as I recall


Shell was still the factory fill for my '92, but I agree it was Mobil 1 within a couple of years after that.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: glxpassat
jpr, that's some great theories you have, but what if you are wrong? If I owned an expensive Porsche I would not blindly trust anyone and would ask all the questions I could just to be sure.


While this is a valid and understandable position, you are also assuming that any oil not on the list will imminently cause the demise of your Porsche's engine. I would wager that there are several oils NOT on Porsche's list that would perform better than some of the oils that are on their list. Once warranty is out of the picture...

It's been a couple of years since I sold my '92 968, but I seem to recall there was the notion of "Porsche approved" which was not the same as "Porsche recommended". I used to run Mobil 1 15W50 red cap API SJ (I believe) for most of the time I owned the car based on darn near every mechanic/dealer recommendation. During those years, Porsche updated their *recommended* oil from a spread of Mobil 1 weights to Mobil 1 0W40 for ALL model years.

I think at the last oil change I had the car I used Mobil 1 0W40, but I don't know if it was SL or SM (2005). I enjoyed the different startup characteristics - red cap was really thick. This was all prior to my BITOG days.

If I still had it I'd probably be running Amsoil euro 5W40, Rotella 5W40 or MAYBE Castrol 5W40 after looking at some used oil analysis. I don't think I'd be running GC, as much as I love it, whether on the list or not - not sure. There was a ton of heat and oil stress compared to "normal" engines and 30 weights would commonly let the oil pressure fall to uncomfortable numbers like 0.5bar when idling after/during high heat/high stress use in these engines. I'm not sure I'd choose a heavy 30/light 40 considering this, particularly in a summer-only car, and would definitely shoot for high HTHS.

 

[glxpassat]

Craig, while not every oil that's not on the list will cause engine failure, some will. If you run something that's not approved, you take your chance.

I wish I could try the Mobil 1 5w-50 for my VW that tends to run pretty hot during the summer when revving the motor. It's Porsche approved as well. Castrol makes a SM 5w-50, but they recommended that I not use it, I guess do to the lower zinc content? The Castrol 5w-40 is still SL rated.

 

[Brien]

Good to see that Delvac 1 is on that list. Listed as Mobil 1 5w-40. Thats about the most cost efficient oil on then list. When purchased in Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck form, of course

Id use GC over Syntec 5w-40 any day of the week

 

[glxpassat]

Brien, they are probably referring to the UK oil Synt S 5w-40. You can see the specs here . It is listed as being on the "Porsche special oil list". They also sell Delvac-1 in the UK for diesels.

I used GC for several years and was getting high lead readings in my used oil analysis. Porsche dropped GC, so I am now trying the Syntec 5w-40 to see if it will help. I figure it can't be too bad if it passes Porsche's tests.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: glxpassat

I used GC for several years and was getting high lead readings in my used oil analysis. Porsche dropped GC, so I am now trying the Syntec 5w-40 to see if it will help. I figure it can't be too bad if it passes Porsche's tests.



Were you using any fuel system cleaners?