Gas prices up $1 a gallon just this spring

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: stockrex
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I didn't realize that the oil companies were really doing us all a favor by selling us gas.
This is what some here are saying it seems.


I don't think most of these people realize that gas and diesel are not just simply products sold by companies trying to make a profit...they are crucial to our national security...what do you think would happen if the price of these fuels all of a sudden shot up to $10 a gal, or for some reason there were massive shortages? It would literally bring our economy to it's knees because EVERYTHING in our economy relies on commerce, and these fuels power this commerce...and before someone says it, no I am not for gov mandated price controls, but how can we leave something this crucial to our nation's interests completely at the mercy of the oil industry and marketeers? It seems to me there should SOME safeguards in place to prevent a complete meltdown of our society in event something catastrophic were to happen with the industry/market...


I wish I could pay more at the gas pump, that will make us more secure and probably bring hair back to my head too.
come on guys, next time you fill up give the guy at the register an extra $20,

Considering the amount gas prices have risen since January, we're already doing that...

 

[javacontour]

Since you are concerned about national security, how much have you cut back on your consumption of fuel?

After all, why should all the burden be placed on the oil companies? Why shouldn't the consumer simply use less, in the interest of national security?

Instead of driving a V8 powered Pickup, SUV or Muscle Car to work, get a Prius. Uncle Sam needs you!

Because if you are calling for limits on oil companies, shouldn't we also have limits on consumers?

Personally, I'm for freedom. I'm for allowing you to drive what you want. But the market has to be offered the very same freedom. You cannot, in good conscience, impinge the freedoms of others, even if they are corporations, just so you or I can enjoy the "freedom" from high prices at their expense.

If you are going to call for limits, then why stop at oil companies. Why not limit consumers. Let's tell rock stars and movie directors they can't use so much energy flying and shipping to locations to film or to put on their shows, and so on.

Once you head down the road of limiting one group, how long until someone suggests limiting yours or my freedoms?

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I didn't realize that the oil companies were really doing us all a favor by selling us gas.
This is what some here are saying it seems.


I don't think most of these people realize that gas and diesel are not just simply products sold by companies trying to make a profit...they are crucial to our national security...what do you think would happen if the price of these fuels all of a sudden shot up to $10 a gal, or for some reason there were massive shortages? It would literally bring our economy to it's knees because EVERYTHING in our economy relies on commerce, and these fuels power this commerce...and before someone says it, no I am not for gov mandated price controls, but how can we leave something this crucial to our nation's interests completely at the mercy of the oil industry and marketeers? It seems to me there should SOME safeguards in place to prevent a complete meltdown of our society in event something catastrophic were to happen with the industry/market...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Since you are concerned about national security, how much have you cut back on your consumption of fuel?

After all, why should all the burden be placed on the oil companies? Why shouldn't the consumer simply use less, in the interest of national security?

Instead of driving a V8 powered Pickup, SUV or Muscle Car to work, get a Prius. Uncle Sam needs you!

Because if you are calling for limits on oil companies, shouldn't we also have limits on consumers?

Personally, I'm for freedom. I'm for allowing you to drive what you want. But the market has to be offered the very same freedom. You cannot, in good conscience, impinge the freedoms of others, even if they are corporations, just so you or I can enjoy the "freedom" from high prices at their expense.

If you are going to call for limits, then why stop at oil companies. Why not limit consumers. Let's tell rock stars and movie directors they can't use so much energy flying and shipping to locations to film or to put on their shows, and so on.

Once you head down the road of limiting one group, how long until someone suggests limiting yours or my freedoms?

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I didn't realize that the oil companies were really doing us all a favor by selling us gas.
This is what some here are saying it seems.


I don't think most of these people realize that gas and diesel are not just simply products sold by companies trying to make a profit...they are crucial to our national security...what do you think would happen if the price of these fuels all of a sudden shot up to $10 a gal, or for some reason there were massive shortages? It would literally bring our economy to it's knees because EVERYTHING in our economy relies on commerce, and these fuels power this commerce...and before someone says it, no I am not for gov mandated price controls, but how can we leave something this crucial to our nation's interests completely at the mercy of the oil industry and marketeers? It seems to me there should SOME safeguards in place to prevent a complete meltdown of our society in event something catastrophic were to happen with the industry/market...


Where have I called for limits on anything?

 

[javacontour]

When you call for "safeguards" isn't that the same as controls or limits? Limits on what the companies can do.

OK, change what I wrote about limits and call them safeguards. Let's put safeguards on consumers.

The same applies. It doesn't really matter what label you put on, it is still a call for some sort of control over others.

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Since you are concerned about national security, how much have you cut back on your consumption of fuel?

After all, why should all the burden be placed on the oil companies? Why shouldn't the consumer simply use less, in the interest of national security?

Instead of driving a V8 powered Pickup, SUV or Muscle Car to work, get a Prius. Uncle Sam needs you!

Because if you are calling for limits on oil companies, shouldn't we also have limits on consumers?

Personally, I'm for freedom. I'm for allowing you to drive what you want. But the market has to be offered the very same freedom. You cannot, in good conscience, impinge the freedoms of others, even if they are corporations, just so you or I can enjoy the "freedom" from high prices at their expense.

If you are going to call for limits, then why stop at oil companies. Why not limit consumers. Let's tell rock stars and movie directors they can't use so much energy flying and shipping to locations to film or to put on their shows, and so on.

Once you head down the road of limiting one group, how long until someone suggests limiting yours or my freedoms?

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I didn't realize that the oil companies were really doing us all a favor by selling us gas.
This is what some here are saying it seems.


I don't think most of these people realize that gas and diesel are not just simply products sold by companies trying to make a profit...they are crucial to our national security...what do you think would happen if the price of these fuels all of a sudden shot up to $10 a gal, or for some reason there were massive shortages? It would literally bring our economy to it's knees because EVERYTHING in our economy relies on commerce, and these fuels power this commerce...and before someone says it, no I am not for gov mandated price controls, but how can we leave something this crucial to our nation's interests completely at the mercy of the oil industry and marketeers? It seems to me there should SOME safeguards in place to prevent a complete meltdown of our society in event something catastrophic were to happen with the industry/market...


Where have I called for limits on anything?

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Personally, I'm of a mind that corporations that are part of the basic infrastructure like oil and gas and maritime shipping should be under a different standard than consumer product companies or home builders. A prime example of that was the recent West Coast port strike and the resultant impact it had on GDP.

If the supply and demand element isn't transparent, then it might be appropriate to standardize certain things about these companies up to and including penalties if they don't abide by these standards. I'm increasingly anti-firefighter for example not because I don't like firefighters...but because they're still able to spike their pensions and their unions think that's just fine to the public's detriment. A district chief near me was able to put an additional 45K a year ( for a total of 268K in pension per year!!!! ) by manipulating the rules and this is commonly done in several public service agencies.

There comes a limit as to what you designate as freedom and what can be thought of as morally and economically wrong. Free markets are great until they're so free all the freedom has been been sucked out of it to the detriment of the majority who may not play that way...witness the mortgage environment circa 2005 and the resulting financial meltdown. The fact that my home loan was made into a "liar loan" even though I easily qualified for the mortgage without the additional income items the lender tried to put on it isn't freedom. It's freedom for me to buy way over my means and abilities but otherwise fraudulent to the larger society.

 

[grampi]

javacontour

No, safeguards are not necessarily the same as limits or controls. A safeguard in the oil industry could be something as simple as expanding how much we keep in reserve...at any rate, I get the notion that you are fine with the industry and its marketeers having as much control over our national security as they do, which is a scary thought...

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: grampi
Why do people feel it's okay for the industry to charge whatever they want when there are no other viable alternatives to gas/diesel?


Why do people who don't have their time, talent or treasure invested think they have the right to tell others what they should charge?

If you lower the price below the costs to bring gas to the pump, fewer suppliers will do it. If you think you can do it cheaper, get some investors and buy or build your own operation. Then you can put your money into it and right the wrongs you perceive.


Nobody's saying that any product should be sold for less than what it costs to bring it to market, but it certainly doesn't cost oil companies anywhere near $3 a gal to bring gas to market...when crude is going for less than $60 a barrel, selling gas at $3 is gouging, I don't care what anybody says...
Three dollars minus the per gallon taxes the Feddy boys and the various states throw on, and overhead. The guy driving the tanker isn't minimum wage, unless illegals get to drive them without a CDL.

 

[Al]

It all boils down to this guys. Joe Sixpack don't give a [censored] about anything except getting in his vehicles and going somewhere. Since he stops at a gas pump he always views the price as a threat to the freedom..."those evil oil companies and greedy investors"..lol And right away comes the National security strawman [censored].

News flash:..we are 5% of the worlds population guzzling 30% of the worlds energy. If there is a national crisis people that need fuel will get it. Joe Sixpack may need to limit the amount of Beer runs he makes.

I have never seen such conspiracy riddled worry warts in my life.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Al
It all boils down to this guys. Joe Sixpack don't give a [censored] about anything except getting in his vehicles and going somewhere. Since he stops at a gas pump he always views the price as a threat to the freedom..."those evil oil companies and greedy investors"..lol And right away comes the National security strawman [censored].

News flash:..we are 5% of the worlds population guzzling 30% of the worlds energy. If there is a national crisis people that need fuel will get it. Joe Sixpack may need to limit the amount of Beer runs he makes.

I have never seen such conspiracy riddled worry warts in my life.


Hopefully, you'll never be in charge of anything national security related...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: grampi
Why do people feel it's okay for the industry to charge whatever they want when there are no other viable alternatives to gas/diesel?


Why do people who don't have their time, talent or treasure invested think they have the right to tell others what they should charge?

If you lower the price below the costs to bring gas to the pump, fewer suppliers will do it. If you think you can do it cheaper, get some investors and buy or build your own operation. Then you can put your money into it and right the wrongs you perceive.


Nobody's saying that any product should be sold for less than what it costs to bring it to market, but it certainly doesn't cost oil companies anywhere near $3 a gal to bring gas to market...when crude is going for less than $60 a barrel, selling gas at $3 is gouging, I don't care what anybody says...
Three dollars minus the per gallon taxes the Feddy boys and the various states throw on, and overhead. The guy driving the tanker isn't minimum wage, unless illegals get to drive them without a CDL.


If the industry was making money when crude was $150 a barrel and gas was $4 a gal (which it certainly was), then they're making a killing now...

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: grampi


If the industry was making money when crude was $150 a barrel and gas was $4 a gal (which it certainly was), then they're making a killing now...


How so? They have to secure rights to oilfields 20+ years out, and invent new drilling technologies, discovery technology, transport, etc. Then the CEO has to decide if it's economically feasible based on his best forecasts. And speculators setting the price for 6 months or 5 years from now helps this forecast.

If he digs a well anticipating $3.50/gal gas, and it's spurting out and he can't stop it, and gas sells for half that, he's going to keep selling that well's gas at a loss.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Nobody's saying that any product should be sold for less than what it costs to bring it to market, but it certainly doesn't cost oil companies anywhere near $3 a gal to bring gas to market...when crude is going for less than $60 a barrel, selling gas at $3 is gouging, I don't care what anybody says...

Why don't you break down the cost of crude oil + transportation + refining cost and profit + federal and state and local tax and fees + transportation to retailers + retailer profit + oil company profit.

You will see that oil company profit per gallon of gas is very minimum at no more than 10-15%. This profit is needed for next oil exploration, salary of hundreds of thousands employees, tax ...

Gouging is extreme large profit that some companies enjoy, 1 of those companies is Apple. For each iPhone they sell they make more than 50% profit. Airline industry is gouging too, when jet fuel price went up they raised ticket price but when jet fuel price went the last 8-10 months they didn't lower ticket price enough to reflect fuel cost, therefore their profit margin went up substantial.

If you want to complain about high gasoline price you should do a detail analysis first.

 

[Blaze]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR


Gouging is extreme large profit that some companies enjoy, 1 of those companies is Apple. For each iPhone they sell they make more than 50% profit. Airline industry is gouging too, when jet fuel price went up they raised ticket price but when jet fuel price went the last 8-10 months they didn't lower ticket price enough to reflect fuel cost, therefore their profit margin went up substantial.


You left out the healthcare industry! The king of gougers!

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
You will see that oil company profit per gallon of gas is very minimum at no more than 10-15%. This profit is needed for next oil exploration, salary of hundreds of thousands employees, tax ...


"Profit" is after all of those things.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: grampi


If the industry was making money when crude was $150 a barrel and gas was $4 a gal (which it certainly was), then they're making a killing now...


How so? They have to secure rights to oilfields 20+ years out, and invent new drilling technologies, discovery technology, transport, etc. Then the CEO has to decide if it's economically feasible based on his best forecasts. And speculators setting the price for 6 months or 5 years from now helps this forecast.

If he digs a well anticipating $3.50/gal gas, and it's spurting out and he can't stop it, and gas sells for half that, he's going to keep selling that well's gas at a loss.


You are both correct. grampi is correct about the short term profits. eljefino is correct about the long term profits.

Fact is that in some markets there is not as much competition on the supply side which gives the refiners the possibility of colluding.

Also, the fact is that the industry is regulated. And that is because it has long been accepted that energy is not like a normal market for goods and services ie it is strategically important and potentially subject to collusion.

Our friends in California may right now be victims of collusion. Apparently, the mandatory stock levels over there are lower than the rest of the country so supply disruptions spike prices and result in nice extra profits for the oil companies. All while gasoline demand in California has been falling.

I am all for the free market but I'm not going to abandon my suspicion of companies and industries who we all know like nothing better than to rig the market in their favor.

And very honestly, I think many consumers are naive when they are the first to defend companies in the name of free markets, when those companies have congress in their pockets.

 

[HTSS_TR]

No, I'm not talking about quarterly corporate profit report. I'm talking about profit per gallon of gas, and this profit is before expense of any kind.

If you analyze quarterly reports you will see that oil companies made the least percentage profit in refining and retail gasoline, they made most profit in oil exploration.

Oil industry on average make about 8-12% profit, their profit is in billions but their revenue is in hundreds of billions.

To me it is very fair to earn 8-12% profit after all expense but before tax. Many industries make much higher profit than oil industry, some make as much as 25-30%, others in the high 10% to low 20%.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Benito
Our friends in California may right now be victims of collusion. Apparently, the mandatory stock levels over there are lower than the rest of the country so supply disruptions spike prices and result in nice extra profits for the oil companies. All while gasoline demand in California has been falling.

There is no evidence what-so-ever that there is collusion of the oil companies to raise price in California the last few months.

Every time when there is a spike in gasoline price in California there was investigates from many state government agencies and they never found any evident at all.

We paid higher price than national average because: higher state and local tax plus special formula that cost about 15-20 cents more and no one else produces it so supply is limited.

Most of the time we pay about 50-60 cents higher than national average, but we don't complain against oil industry, we complain about state regulation and tax because they are responsible for higher price.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To me it is very fair to earn 8-12% profit after all expense but before tax.


OK, well XOM made 13%, 14%, 17% for 2014, 2013, 2012. So that is more than fair?

And I presume you mean profit as a % of sales.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
There is no evidence what-so-ever that there is collusion of the oil companies to raise price in California the last few months.

Every time when there is a spike in gasoline price in California there was investigates from many state government agencies and they never found any evident at all.

We paid higher price than national average because: higher state and local tax plus special formula that cost about 15-20 cents more and no one else produces it so supply is limited.

Most of the time we pay about 50-60 cents higher than national average, but we don't complain against oil industry, we complain about state regulation and tax because they are responsible for higher price.


This industry is ripe for the type of collusion where no evidence will be found. A nod and a wink type of collusion.

Here's an interesting report on oil company profits in California.

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/newsrelease/new-report-oil-refiners%E2%80%99-profits-spike-gasoline-price-spikes

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To me it is very fair to earn 8-12% profit after all expense but before tax.


OK, well XOM made 13%, 14%, 17% for 2014, 2013, 2012. So that is more than fair?

And I presume you mean profit as a % of sales.

Profit as percentage of revenue.

Are you sure XOM made 13%, 14%, 17% profit for 2014, 2013, 2012 from revenue ?

I remember they made 12% in 2012 and less in 2013 and 2014.

About collusion, I don't accuse any corporation/industry of any crime without evidence. They were investigated by many agencies from Federal to states to local governments many times the last 10-20 years and no one every found any evidence they violate any law in manipulate supply/demand and price fixing.