Gas $4.15 per gallon

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Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Personally I am soooo tired of hearing about this "entitlement" garbage! Because you drive a car that MIGHT get better MPG than your neighbor means you are using less "resources"? PLEASE. You think you are a better person because your car gets "reasonable" MPG? I don't get it!


I don't think I'm a better person, no, nor said that in anything I posted. There is no "maybe" involved in how a fuel efficient vehicle uses less resources than a vehicle that isn't. That is mathematics and its pretty black and white stuff.

There will always be times when there is a temporary drop in fuel prices. When the long-term trend is upward, as it has been, it is a mistake to call the upward trend an aberration. Its the temporary drops that are, and that's why they don't last.

That we are looking to increasingly marginal sources to quench our needs is not speculation either, it is fact. Proof can be found in how costly it is to extract oil from the Alberta tar sands, yet we are doing exactly that and doing so profitably because demand versus supply has oil priced so highly that it is profitable to do it.

It is fact: oil supplies worldwide have been explored to the extent that in order to meet demand, companies are spending far more as they look to more marginal and costly sources to meet that demand. That price is passed onto the consumer because the market will bear it; lacking alternatives, and with demand worldwide steadily increasing, the market has no choice but to bear it.

Speculators realize this and are merely cashing in on a piece of the action. Blaming speculators is mistaking effect as cause - they're just the symptom, not the disease.

People are free to close their eyes to this reality and shove their heads in the sand - but to then complain about it is a bit much. If you don't like the status quo on fuel prices then do the only thing you can do about it and begin looking at ways to use less of it. Otherwise, as I said before, you are screaming into the wind because all the protest will change nothing. Change will come when demand decreases, and that will only happen when we - collectively - move away from fossil fuel use by using alternatives where possible, and less of it when its not possible.

-Spyder
 
While I do agree with much of what of spyder7 says, the one thing that does worry me is not so much the cost of fuel (most can work around that), but the huge increase in the cost of living that will add to this.(My son's hot wheels are already up 25 cents in less than a month, for example.


There needs to be a way to keep this in check so that people can still afford to eat and have a roof over their heads. If not, it's going to look quite third world around here pretty quick. I can live with 5 to 6 buck gas if my bananas don't cost 1.29/lb or a gallon of milk at 6 bucks....


And at this rate-it WILL happen-sooner than many think...
 
Originally Posted By: daves87rs

There needs to be a way to keep this in check so that people can still afford to eat and have a roof over their heads. If not, it's going to look quite third world around here pretty quick. I can live with 5 to 6 buck gas if my bananas don't cost 1.29/lb or a gallon of milk at 6 bucks....


And at this rate-it WILL happen-sooner than many think...


That's the other side of the coin, and one too often missed. Since, at best, any place in western civilization is producing only a fraction of the goods they consume, the bulk has to be brought in from other places. Here its oranges from Florida, potatoes from PEI, etc. As fuel costs increases, the price of goods has to as well since part of their price must include the transportation cost.

This is something we are seeing happen too, though there is less awareness as the relationship isn't as obvious as degree varies and there is a built in lag between when fuel increases and those increases being passed to consumers in price increases.

And that's also the really ugly end of the deal. We can make immediate changes in our fuel expenditures by either trading down to something more efficient, rationing our usage, or substituting with an existing alternative (mass transit, car pooling, etc).

Not so with the price of goods that are increasing because of higher transportation costs, where that cost is more of a fixed cost that the consumer can do little about other than go without.

Its a much more subtle thing, but IMO the uglier side of the coin because it impacts just about everything and reduces choice to either eating the cost and living with it as fact of life, or going without. Hard to go without staple goods that are not immune from this though.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Too late to add this to my previous post, but the only "bubble" I see is the one people are living in where entitlement sentiment runs so deep they believe they can use more of a limited resource (by way of much larger and less fuel efficient vehicles that are now a dying fad) while expecting the price of it to stay the same - and then looking anywhere but in the mirror to put the blame when reality doesn't meet those entitlement expectations.


That sounds a touch pious. I'm free to drive whatever the heck I want to drive, whether it gets 5mpg or 50. My drive to work is only a couple of Km. So while I'm driving a "dying fad" (which by the looks of the current truck sales numbers, doesn't really look like it is anywhere near to being on life support...but I digress) that 2-3Km to work, there are thousands of other people driving 60-100Km commutes to Oshawa, Toronto, Ajax, Whitby, Pickering, Mississauga.....etc. (you get the picture) in their "more efficient" vehicles, consuming FAR more fuel than I am over the course of a week.

So who here has the "entitlement sentiment"? You don't imply, you STATE that those using more oil are those using large, less efficient vehicles:

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
but the only "bubble" I see is the one people are living in where entitlement sentiment runs so deep they believe they can use more of a limited resource (by way of much larger and less fuel efficient vehicles that are now a dying fad) while expecting the price of it to stay the same - and then looking anywhere but in the mirror to put the blame when reality doesn't meet those entitlement expectations.


Yet it is CLEARLY not that cut and dry. It just seems to be some of that "small car driving club" attitude shining through. You drive a smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle, so you are "better" than somebody driving an SUV. Not factoring in of course that you may drive that person's weekly mileage four fold due to your commute or driving habits. But we don't bring that into the equation (intentionally omit it?) because it doesn't support your agenda.

Smaller cars? Sure, we can start there.

-Better insulate your homes.
-Don't heat with oil.
-Move closer to work so you have the shortest commute possible.
-Only drive when you absolutely NEED to.
-Move to a smaller house that is just big enough for you (and your family) to be comfortable. After all, a bigger house costs more to heat.
-Switch all your lights to LED's or CFL's. All our electricity doesn't come "green".
-Don't buy anything made of plastic. It comes from oil.
-Run the longest OCI's you possibly can on an oil like Redline which uses the least amount of "crude" possible.
..... And the list goes on and on and on.


See where I'm going yet? It's all fine and dandy to point the finger at the people driving trucks and SUV's and say they are the bad guy. But unless you know how they live, where they live and how much they drive, you really have no right to be walking with your nose in the air because you drive a Prius/Fit/Insight...etc *insert "greenie mobile" car here* because their lifestyle may mean that they use far LESS of this precious resource overall than you do.

So perhaps it isn't just the SUV drivers that need to look in the mirror here?
 
Originally Posted By: Nick R
When I first picked up my focus back in August, it cost me about $28 to fill up the tank. Last night, I put $47 in, and it wasn't even a full tank!


57 bucks to fill the wife's Cavalier...
 
Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: Nick R
When I first picked up my focus back in August, it cost me about $28 to fill up the tank. Last night, I put $47 in, and it wasn't even a full tank!


57 bucks to fill the wife's Cavalier...


Try $120 to fill the Expedition
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: Nick R
When I first picked up my focus back in August, it cost me about $28 to fill up the tank. Last night, I put $47 in, and it wasn't even a full tank!


57 bucks to fill the wife's Cavalier...


Try $120 to fill the Expedition
wink.gif



Yeah my dad is none too happy right now, he's driving the expedition to/from work. He's almost considering buying a cheap cavalier or something that at least gets good gas mileage.

I mean, at least I get good mileage (~30 per tank lately), and my mom gets at least respectable (~26 with the Mustang) but neither the Jeep nor the expedition can really top 15mpg around town.
 
You're trying to find a flaw by making an apples to oranges comparison and reading things in my post that weren't there. I have no agenda. I simply read 4 pages of posts about 'speculators' and found that wanting as far as explanation goes. So I went against the grain by writing what I felt was a more complete explanation.

Speculators are like the messengers of bad news nobody wants to hear. And this thread is filled with 'shoot the messenger' type posts for that very reason. People just want cheap gas. Period. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen; and not only is it not going to happen, but the prices we see today are going to seem pretty cheap compared to tomorrow because people would rather close their minds and cast about for other causes (like speculation) than they would consider realities that, no matter how painful, are reality nevertheless and are not going to change.

Again, to put it as short and sweet as possible: it is becoming more expensive on the supply side because we're on the diminishing returns side of the curve where every barrel of oil is more expensive to find and extract. Those costs are passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices. Because the resource is limited and non-renewable, cost is going to continue to increase as suppliers look to ever more marginal (and expensive) sources to meet demand. Speculation is not the causation. Its linked to the higher prices and part of it, but only because the conditions outlined above are already ripe for that to happen.

At the individual level, there is absolutely zero we can do about any of it other than on the demand side. That's the part people would rather bury their heads in the sand than hear, but unfortunately doing so doesn't change anything. Nor does griping about speculators.

If you don't like the reality, so be it. Neither do I to be honest, but that doesn't change it any.

-Spyder
 
Thank you, Overkill, for pointing out that the entitlement theory goes beyond just automobiles. It includes the key essentials food, shelter, and clothing as well. It's just that transportation fuel use outpaces most of the other energy consumption items and it gets the most attention.

I am still educating myself about this stuff and found that studying the concept of "Peak Oil" gives me lots to think about regarding our future energy challenges. Even the Wikipedia discussion (yes, I know!!) at least lays out the principles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

For dave87rs asking that we need to "find a way": For a glimpse of what could "save the world" from energy catastrophe, I recommend reading the "Transition Primer" at this grassroots site: http://www.transitionnetwork.org/ (yes, I'm from the hippy generation and I read The Mother Earth News back in the day).

I am fortunate to be a tiny cog in the exciting research of biofuels and this explains my stance that we are quite behind Europe in addressing our oil dependence.

Peace.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Too late to add this to my previous post, but the only "bubble" I see is the one people are living in where entitlement sentiment runs so deep they believe they can use more of a limited resource (by way of much larger and less fuel efficient vehicles that are now a dying fad) while expecting the price of it to stay the same - and then looking anywhere but in the mirror to put the blame when reality doesn't meet those entitlement expectations.


That sounds a touch pious. I'm free to drive whatever the heck I want to drive, whether it gets 5mpg or 50. My drive to work is only a couple of Km. So while I'm driving a "dying fad" (which by the looks of the current truck sales numbers, doesn't really look like it is anywhere near to being on life support...but I digress) that 2-3Km to work, there are thousands of other people driving 60-100Km commutes to Oshawa, Toronto, Ajax, Whitby, Pickering, Mississauga.....etc. (you get the picture) in their "more efficient" vehicles, consuming FAR more fuel than I am over the course of a week.

So who here has the "entitlement sentiment"? You don't imply, you STATE that those using more oil are those using large, less efficient vehicles:

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
but the only "bubble" I see is the one people are living in where entitlement sentiment runs so deep they believe they can use more of a limited resource (by way of much larger and less fuel efficient vehicles that are now a dying fad) while expecting the price of it to stay the same - and then looking anywhere but in the mirror to put the blame when reality doesn't meet those entitlement expectations.


Yet it is CLEARLY not that cut and dry. It just seems to be some of that "small car driving club" attitude shining through. You drive a smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle, so you are "better" than somebody driving an SUV. Not factoring in of course that you may drive that person's weekly mileage four fold due to your commute or driving habits. But we don't bring that into the equation (intentionally omit it?) because it doesn't support your agenda.

Smaller cars? Sure, we can start there.

-Better insulate your homes.
-Don't heat with oil.
-Move closer to work so you have the shortest commute possible.
-Only drive when you absolutely NEED to.
-Move to a smaller house that is just big enough for you (and your family) to be comfortable. After all, a bigger house costs more to heat.
-Switch all your lights to LED's or CFL's. All our electricity doesn't come "green".
-Don't buy anything made of plastic. It comes from oil.
-Run the longest OCI's you possibly can on an oil like Redline which uses the least amount of "crude" possible.
..... And the list goes on and on and on.


See where I'm going yet? It's all fine and dandy to point the finger at the people driving trucks and SUV's and say they are the bad guy. But unless you know how they live, where they live and how much they drive, you really have no right to be walking with your nose in the air because you drive a Prius/Fit/Insight...etc *insert "greenie mobile" car here* because their lifestyle may mean that they use far LESS of this precious resource overall than you do.

So perhaps it isn't just the SUV drivers that need to look in the mirror here?


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Thank you! Exactly what I was trying to say! Yet most people don't seem to get the point. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one seeing some piousness and self righteousness.

I think it would be interesting for everyone on here to post what their daily drive is - how many miles they drive yearly, what they drive and how often they ride share or walk/bicycle to work, and what kind and size of house they live in. I think it might be very enlightening!
 
I think that's a sideshow and a distraction that misses the point. If there was anything pious sounding in my post, it was unintended.

I'll entertain it in this post (only) anyway. Total annual mileage last year was 22,000 km and is pretty typical for me. Fuel costs on the home side are zero because heat and light are included in my rent. That said, my parents grew up in an age when the only heat was from a wood stove you spent the summer cutting wood for, and "wasting electricity" was something both frowned upon (to put it mildly). The rare time I walk out of a room and leave the light on, the compulsion to walk back and turn it off wins every time. No TV is on unless its being watched. When it isn't, its off.

I don't look at these habits as even 'choice' or 'lifestyle' and they long predate fashion and fad. I'm 'free' in a sense to waste as much juice as I want, but too conditioned against doing so to do so.

Its an interesting water to fish in, but one far removed from the topic and one I doubt you'll find fruitful.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
If you don't like the reality, so be it. Neither do I to be honest, but that doesn't change it any.

-Spyder


That I can agree with you. The rest I didn't bother to repost or comment on because it is strictly your opinion and I see no evidence to back it up.

Your agenda has been clear - as Overkill said you made it quite clear. That's fine you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. But I think it's wrong to say someone is part of the problem because of what they drive. PERIOD!

I don't like paying higher prices for ANYTHING than I have to, but I also don't like getting robbed (I can't use the word I was thinking) and that's the whole point.

You know - I lived through the gas "shortages" of the 70's and 80's. The 1.50 we were paying in the early 80's is about the equivalent of 3.50 or more now. I remember MOST people had mid to big cars that often had big V8s - some of which got in the single digits around town with premium gas.

History has a habit of repeating itself. Back in the late 70's you couldn't hardly give away a car that had a V8. I remember going with a friend of mine to look for a "new" (to him) used car. We went to a large Chevy dealer. At the time I happen to be driving a Chevy Vega. We were hardly out of the car when a salesman approached us and asked if we wanted to trade that car in. When we said no, he disappeared.

We walked all around the dealership looking at cars. We found 2 cars out of about a hundred that had a 6 cylinder engine. When we asked about them, the price was about 20 percent higher than what it should have been. They tried to steer us towards one of the cars with a V8. We ended up leaving empty handed.

Back then people were trying to get rid of their gas guzzlers because "we are never going to see cheap gas prices again". I've heard that so many times over the last 40 years that now I laugh every time I hear it. Nobody knows if this fall we will be paying 7.00 a gallon in the US or 2.00 - I don't and neither does anyone here.

But anyone that seriously thinks the high prices are due solely to "supply and demand" are either seriously mentally challenged or "have their head in the sand."

Edit: I think we have all beat this horse to death and so I am going to exit this thread. Best wishes to all!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I think that's a sideshow and a distraction that misses the point. If there was anything pious sounding in my post, it was unintended.

I'll entertain it in this post (only) anyway. Total annual mileage last year was 22,000 km and is pretty typical for me. Fuel costs on the home side are zero because heat and light are included in my rent. That said, my parents grew up in an age when the only heat was from a wood stove you spent the summer cutting wood for, and "wasting electricity" was something both frowned upon (to put it mildly). The rare time I walk out of a room and leave the light on, the compulsion to walk back and turn it off wins every time. No TV is on unless its being watched. When it isn't, its off.

I don't look at these habits as even 'choice' or 'lifestyle' and they long predate fashion and fad. I'm 'free' in a sense to waste as much juice as I want, but too conditioned against doing so to do so.

Its an interesting water to fish in, but one far removed from the topic and one I doubt you'll find fruitful.

-Spyder


I don't think it is a sideshow at all. We are talking about a resource that is used for FAR more than just the fuel to run our vehicles, be they of the "gas sipping" or "gas sucking" variety.

Look at aircraft, transport trucks, trains, ships....etc.

Everybody wants cheap junk from Walmart. Well that (likely plastic: more oil) item gets produced in a facility powered by a "non-nuke" plant in China, then SHIPPED over here on a container ship, then TRUCKED to the nearest Walmart, which is illuminated with lighting that I'm sure sucks back a truckload of power.

And of course these items are packed for shipping (more plastic: oil) so they don't get damaged.

How much oil is consumed in that cycle? How does that compare to my or your annual oil consumption?

Our dependence on oil affects every facet of our lives. It isn't just the cars we drive. Though we like to simplify it and point the finger to other people's driveways and say "that's the problem". But it isn't. From the food we eat and goods we ship, to the products that we buy. Our buying habits and our day to day choices are all dependent upon oil.
 
How many threads can this board have on gas prices? I mean really? It's always the token gas price thread that appears beside the forum topic...

Maybe the website should be changed too...

GasisthereasonIcry.com

Well, since a bunch of people are crying about it, I'm gonna cry too!

I'm sure as HECK glad most of you are not in any position of power because A.) We wouldn't have any gas because you would have capped the price. B.) Our cars would radomly turn off at a four way stop because you would have mandated that every coil-on-plug ignition stopped firing because the 'idling' noticed by the vehicle speed sensor would be illegal. C.) We would have to pay a moving company to take a riding lawn mower over to grandma's place to cut the grass because all vehicles with GVW over 3,500lbs. would require a special EPA permit to own/operate. D.) Driving fatalities would sky rocket even higher than currently on two lane roads due to a meter someone on this board would have designed to work in conjuction with the throttle position sensor necessarily limiting WOT bursts to 5 seconds per mile driven. E) Every god dern bottle of oil you picked up would be a PAO/Ester blend of 0w-0 and supposedly good for 20K OCI and would cost $20 a quart. And if you changed it early, the cop who pulled you over for a tail light out added an 'energy depeltion tax' when he scanned your engine's ECU with his iProjector (made by Apple of course).

There, did I get everyone? Did I miss any toes?
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
We can adjust our oil dependence pro actively, or it can be shoved down our throats. Guess which will happen.

First, there is no shortage of energy.
Second, there is plenty of oil
Third, there are plenty of viable alternatives

With that in mind, who cares what size car I drive?

Oh, wait, we don't want to use nuclear. We don't want to drill for oil, we don't want to use coal, we place 100% of American oil shale off limits, we insist on using corn for ethanol, etc.

Instead, we will use oil and natural gas to heat homes, heat water and power electrical powerplants. A massive waste of portable forms of energy!

We, collectively are mismanaging 100% of the energy we have. I'll keep the politics out of it. But you are kidding yourself if you believe the commonly accepted information.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Try $120 to fill the Expedition
wink.gif


If you can afford to buy an Expedition, you can afford to fill it up.

BTW, absolutely nothing wrong with shopping at Walmart.
 
I just went to a kroger gas station to fill up my wife's 09 vibe after church. Every pump was taken, this gas was 3.729 with the kroger card. the shell station a little down the street was 3.799/gallon and no one was there. so everyone watches gas prices like some maniac, they are only saving 1.80 a tank if you have a 30 gallon tank. There were alot of SUVs/trucks at the kroger station, so it looks like they are trying to save every penny to fuel their rides. I don't blame them. I go to Kroger gas stations b/c I'm frugal.
 
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