Future is THIN

ToyotaNSaturn · Sep 5, 2005

Bruce, yes it is! 0w is just a range that defines 0w-4w, 5w defines the range of 5w-9w, 10w defines the range of 10w-14w, etc...

2w would be an exact measurement, which wouldn't surprise me as these are racing conditions where exactness is required.

buster · Sep 5, 2005

quote:

*Shell Spirax L6285 gearbox oil performed so well in Britain, it will be retained for use by the team in Germany

*Ferrari will continue to use Shell Helix SL907 engine lubricant in Hockenheim

*Having developed a portfolio of lubricants, Shell has equipped Ferrari with a range of products from which the team can choose the most suitable, depending on the track and ambient conditions when the team arrive trackside

*Shell's lubricant analysts, based in Chester, England, work extremely closely with the Ferrari engineers - this close partnership allows the two teams to communicate effectively to develop new and improved lubricants on a continual basis

http://www.f1technical.net/article759.html

Ryan Newman qualifies with a 0w-5 oil.

bruce381 · Sep 5, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:
Bruce, yes it is! 0w is just a range that defines 0w-4w, 5w defines the range of 5w-9w, 10w defines the range of 10w-14w, etc...

2w would be an exact measurement, which wouldn't surprise me as these are racing conditions where exactness is required.

WRONG SAE J300 defines vis grades and there is no in betweens or a 2,3,4 grade.
SAE Viscosity Grades for Engine Oilsa — SAE J300 Dec 99

Sorry did not cut and paste well from LZ.

grade/cps at max temp C
this gives the "cold" end grade.
depending on temp and vis grade is determined.
NO 2W.

0W 6200 at -35
5W 6600 at -30
10W 7000 at -25
15W 7000 at -20
20W 9500 at -15
25W 13,000 at -10

This gives the "hot" end
vis at 100C also there is a HTHS minimum also but did not copy well.

20 — — 5.6 to 9.3
30 — — 9.3 to 12.5
40 — — 12.5 to 16.3
50 — — 16.3 to 21.9
60 — — 21.9 to 26.1

No in between grades.

bruce

nickmckinney · Sep 5, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by noob:

quote:

Originally posted by LarryL:
The rumor is that the Shell oil you saw is 2w-5. One of those transporters is a complete Shell lab with the ability to look at samples and mix small batches of oil on the spot. During a race weekend there are always people going through the trash cans and dumpsters looking for information. Dumpster diving is a job for some people.

Click to expand...

I believe it. It was surprising how easily it sloshed around in the plastic container and was obviously extremely thin oil. 19,000+ rpms and all that HP/heat being protected by 2w-5. Wow.

Kinda blows many of these 5W20 being too thin arguments out of the water. 2W5 makes 5W20 look like gear oil in comparision.

Blue99 · Sep 5, 2005

- Bruce is absolutely correct on this one. Ain't no such animal.

0W-5, 2W-5 are just marketing labels on the bottle label, not actual viscosity grades per SAE J300.

bruce381 · Sep 5, 2005

I see the same thing for shock oils like 3wt, 7wt.
bruce

ToyotaNSaturn · Sep 5, 2005

I stand corrected, and more informed.

AEHaas · Sep 5, 2005

J300 provides for current street automotive oil applications. There are thicker and thinner oils. The criteria fits petroleum based oils. An animal or plant based oil may have a viscosity of 11 cS at 100 C but still not meet any other criteria to be an SAE labeled 30 wt. oil.

Even though J300 does not define a 2 or 5 straight wt. oil Red Line and others sell these oils as such. They do not claim SAE J300 compliance however. One would think that the Red Line 5 wt. is thinner than a basic 20 wt oil and that the 2 wt. is thinner yet. It is just a starting point for those who choose to use these oils.

I have been tempted to try the Red Line 10 wt. oil in my Ferrari that is now running a 0W-20. The 10 wt. should give me lower pressures than the 20 wt. oil. This can be confirmed by putting the stuff into my car.

Non SAE labeled light weight Red Line oils have been used in Formula 1 cars. Any oil regardless of how thin has to be defined by some relative number system. The SAE system is most often used, even though not necessarily meeting SAE criteria.

Also, the scale is not absolute. A 0 wt. oil has viscosity. If we go thinner some day then either the numbering system has to change or negative numbers will have to be used. My personal guess is that a -30W30 wt. oil (negative 30W-30) will thicken even less than a 0w30 on engine shutdown.

aehaas

NJC · Sep 5, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
I believe that when you punch it the engine efficiency is higher and you are up to speed in a short amount of time contributing to good performance for the fuel spent.

I think you are correct; IE "throttling" is just that, cutting off supply. I understand peak engine efficiency to be at WOT too.

Cicero · Sep 5, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by buster:
On a side note, I bet we see a nice PAO/Ester 5w-20 from Amsoil soon....

Hope you win that bet.

LubeOiler · Sep 5, 2005

With all the brain power that has been applied to this subject I still have two reasons that long term I can't run THIN oil.The thing is I am not sold on it long term because of

1) Thin oil seems to slip by the rings (2) Under extream conditions thin oil will sheer more. Any other thing is minor but those used to be real issues but they may have addressed them in the short run with additives.

sands · Sep 6, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by nickmckinney:

quote:

Originally posted by noob:

quote:

Originally posted by LarryL:
The rumor is that the Shell oil you saw is 2w-5. One of those transporters is a complete Shell lab with the ability to look at samples and mix small batches of oil on the spot. During a race weekend there are always people going through the trash cans and dumpsters looking for information. Dumpster diving is a job for some people.

Click to expand...

I believe it. It was surprising how easily it sloshed around in the plastic container and was obviously extremely thin oil. 19,000+ rpms and all that HP/heat being protected by 2w-5. Wow.

Click to expand...

Kinda blows many of these 5W20 being too thin arguments out of the water. 2W5 makes 5W20 look like gear oil in comparision.

Not really.

I wouldn't place too much stock in what oil weight a major race team uses...

They put new engines in those cars like changing underwear...Their goal is to use an oil that gets the best HP/mpg while at the same time allows the engine to at least last and perform well for the duration of the race.

There is a tradeoff for going that thin....But the race teams are not concerned with engine longevity in the same way that the owner of the family car is.

1sttruck · Sep 6, 2005

The only types of racing that seems worth considering for our needs is either endurance racing, but most of all non 'big buck' racing where engines aren't considered consumables. People that need to make their vehicles last at least a season, and especially people that drive their vehicles.

Most in the above seem to use heavier oils.

sands · Sep 6, 2005

quote:

Your also seeing NASCAR qualifty with Mobil 1 0w-5 oil and run 0w30 the entire race. Royal Purple and Redline also have many low viscosity oils. Yeah they rebuild engines, but the technology has allowed this type of viscosity to be used in cases where 20w-50 was the norm.

If they go from 0W-5 to 0w30 from qualifying to the race shouldn't that tell you something ?

Like I said before, I wouldn't use a nascar example to make a case for using thin oil unless you're trying to prove better mpg and hp asociated with thin oils...

Extra wear protection isn't one of them...There is a point to wear you can go too thin, just like you can go too thick.

427Z06 · Sep 6, 2005

Any discussion on oil viscosity without specifying running temperatures and particular engine designs (and modifications of those designs) is pure folly, IMHO.

nascarnation · Sep 7, 2005

anybody out there got a beater for a test?
let's try kerosene with a bottle of EOS added

buster · Sep 8, 2005

quote:

Question:
Protection Provided by 5W-20 Motor Oil
My new Honda I-VTEC 4 Cylinder calls for 5W-20 oil. I've been using Mobil 1 5w30 in my 2000 Tundra. I was using the 5w30 in my 2004 Mazda 3 2.0 L even though the manual called for 5W-20. My question: Because of the federal CAFE mandates to improve gas mileage auto makers have gone to lighter oils. Can a 5W-20 synthetic really provide the same amount of wear protection as a 5w30 synthetic oil? Have machine tolerances become so exact that they really require a lighter viscosity than a 5w30?
-- Howard Snook, Lowgap, NC

Answer:
Car builders that recommend 5W-20 viscosity oils have tested these oils extensively to ensure that they provide adequate protection of critical engine parts. Our testing has shown that Mobil 1 5W-20 provides excellent wear protection in modern vehicles. Because today’s engines have tighter tolerances – due to improvements in metallurgy and parts-finishing quality, oils with a low film thickness can provide the protection required and at the same time provide fuels economy benefits. Mobil 1 5W-20 is designed for vehicles where a 5W-20 viscosity oil is recommended. Not only does Mobil 1 5W-20 help extend engine life but it also provides exceptional fuel economy as well.

Audi Junkie · Sep 8, 2005

anybody out there got a beater for a test?
let's try kerosene with a bottle of EOS added

Funny thing, I kero flushed my cousin's VW 1.8l that had brief intermitent OP light at idle when hot. Man, that light flashed and flashed while the kero was in. I let it sit for a while, to clean the pump a bit, used MaxLife 20w-50 and no OP light at all now.

Future is THIN

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