FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits

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Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Actual, there are already well-documented scientific studies on lubricant impact on DI engine intake valve deposits, since PVC and EGR are a fact of life in modern engine design.


any pictures of intake valves on the cars that use RLI lubricant?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Lubricant is not a problem to begin with so it can't be part of the solution..

Wow. If no problem could be solved except by the thing that caused it, we'd live in a very different world...

Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
get rid of PCV and EGR and that will take care of the deposits.

So what do you propose to do with the excess emissions?


I am afraid that this is the case for DI engine problem...

as for the emissions, how much extra gas is burned(and will be burned) in these DI cars because of the vale deposits..keep in mind as deposits get worse mileage and emissions will increase since most people are not gearheads like us and will keep driving the cars until they start getting misfires...only then they will take it to the shop, but then heads will have to come off to clean the stuff out...
 
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A standard auxiliary fuel injector tuned for WOT & higher boost might work. I know a guy who had meth injection on his Mazdaspeed3. I'd imagine an occasional squirt would suffice to prevent buildup. Dude also seafoamed regularly...car was fast!
 
I thought meth+H20 injection might work until I saw the state of the inlet.

Check out: http://audisrs.com/about5000.html?sid=2fd70c8eca3da3592ed0433336f4b247

(You might have to register first.)

It took an hour to clean each port with diesel and coca-cola!

It might work if you'd had the work-around from new, but even cars with 3K miles on them are covered in s**t.

Audi UK have (informally) said "It's OK because cars are not mis-firing."

Great attitude towards a premium product.
 
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Lubricant is not a problem to begin with so it can't be part of the solution..

Wow. If no problem could be solved except by the thing that caused it, we'd live in a very different world...

Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
get rid of PCV and EGR and that will take care of the deposits.

So what do you propose to do with the excess emissions?


I am afraid that this is the case for DI engine problem...

as for the emissions, how much extra gas is burned(and will be burned) in these DI cars because of the vale deposits..keep in mind as deposits get worse mileage and emissions will increase since most people are not gearheads like us and will keep driving the cars until they start getting misfires...only then they will take it to the shop, but then heads will have to come off to clean the stuff out...



If it is truly fuel dilution related i would expect it to be more of a di in conjunction turbo problem than a di problem. Since the gm v6 3.6 di engine doesn't seem to suffer from fuel dilution problems.


On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.
 
Originally Posted By: wapacz
On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.


Doubtful, many Diesel oils (Rotella T, TDT) are rated for use in catalyst equipped gasoline cars as well.

More likely it's the lean mixture diesels usually run.
 
It's been suggested that the position and spray pattern of the fuel injectors may play a role. The theory is that the current set-up promotes fuel "sticking" to the cylinder wall.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: wapacz
On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.


Except now for 50 state legal engines there are catalytic converters along with EGR systems and DPF exhaust.
 
That could be a problem except the emissions rest is a long distance test - a lot more than 3,000 miles - in fact MORE than ten times as long !
 
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Doubtful, many Diesel oils (Rotella T, TDT) are rated for use in catalyst equipped gasoline cars as well.

Good point. I stand corrected.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: wapacz
On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.


And modern diesels do run catalysts.

Direct injected diesels have been around since the sixties without dilution issues, but it's the entire combustion process of compress the gas to superheated, then inject the fuel that enables them to be much more efficient.
They are pumping air all the time, just varying the fuel, so they are running far leaner than what is considered stoichiometric in petrol engines.

Fuel dilution is becoming more of a problem with diesels, particularly with bio-diesel blends, but that is related to the lower volatility of bio fuels not voltising out of the crankcase.
 
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After having the previous valve deposits issues running Audi approved oils, SilverRS4 took matters into his own hands by changing to Biosyn 5W40 and BioPlus, along with pulling the intake manifold to view the intake valves on a regular basis. Here are his results:

Quote:
I had the manifold off the fourth time about a month ago when there was close to 3000 miles on the Biosyn. The valves were not clean, but it was more of a thin, oxidized film of oil, rather than thick, gooey, flow-blocking black crud (which was the case after 4000 miles of factory oil, 4000 miles of Mobil 1, and less than 1000 miles of Castrol TXT). I was pleased and will certainly keep using the Biosyn. I am sure Scott could fill you in on the chemistry that makes the build up rate noticably less. I also use the Biosyn fuel conditioner (2 oz) with each fuel fill of Shell gasoline to make sure the injectors stay clean. With the FSI aspect of the 4.2L engine, I believe that sparkly clean valves is just not a realistic expectation - even with Biosyn. But I am happy with how its working thus far. The aspect that really hasn't been discussed is the affect that the oil "contaminated" intake charge has on optimum spark timing. The advanced RS4 ECM's and knock sensors seem particularly sensitive. After endless logging, I have a few cylinders that have timing retarded 4-6 degrees under moderate loads and 9-11 degrees under heavy loads. That is significant. I live in the Midwest and am stuck with Ethanol blended fuel even in the 91-92 octane Tier 1 fuels (Shell included)- that could be part of it, I don't know.

As far as my cleaning method, it was just the old fashion way. In six of the eight cylinders, the intake valves were completely closed, so I just poured in several ounces of carb cleaner right into the intake ports and let the valves soak several hours. Then a majority of the crud comes off with aggressive scraping with an appropriately shaped metal tool. The valve stems block the ability to scrape the area behind them. Vacuum out the mess. Then I poured in fresh solvent and put a small Dremel-type wire brush tool on the end of a cordless drill. Scrub, scrub, scrub. The varnish layer of buildup on the valve surface is very, very hard. This method is limited and removes 90% of the build up at best. The walnut shell blasting would be far better. I have access to such blasting equipment and media, but its ridiculous that I or anyone else has to consider such a chore ...warranty work or not.
 
What solvent is being used to pour in & clean the valves with the wire brush tool? Is there an oil change immediately afterwards or is this of no concern?
 
from his post:

"The aspect that really hasn't been discussed is the affect that the oil "contaminated" intake charge has on optimum spark timing. The advanced RS4 ECM's and knock sensors seem particularly sensitive. After endless logging, I have a few cylinders that have timing retarded 4-6 degrees under moderate loads and 9-11 degrees under heavy loads. That is significant."

This is exactly reason why I deleted my PCV system..oil mist in intake/combustion chamber = deposits = but also less HP
 
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
After having the previous valve deposits issues running Audi approved oils, SilverRS4 took matters into his own hands by changing to Biosyn 5W40 and BioPlus, along with pulling the intake manifold to view the intake valves on a regular basis. Here are his results:

Quote:
I had the manifold off the fourth time about a month ago when there was close to 3000 miles on the Biosyn. The valves were not clean, but it was more of a thin, oxidized film of oil, rather than thick, gooey, flow-blocking black crud (which was the case after 4000 miles of factory oil, 4000 miles of Mobil 1, and less than 1000 miles of Castrol TXT). I was pleased and will certainly keep using the Biosyn. I am sure Scott could fill you in on the chemistry that makes the build up rate noticably less. I also use the Biosyn fuel conditioner (2 oz) with each fuel fill of Shell gasoline to make sure the injectors stay clean. With the FSI aspect of the 4.2L engine, I believe that sparkly clean valves is just not a realistic expectation - even with Biosyn. But I am happy with how its working thus far. The aspect that really hasn't been discussed is the affect that the oil "contaminated" intake charge has on optimum spark timing. The advanced RS4 ECM's and knock sensors seem particularly sensitive. After endless logging, I have a few cylinders that have timing retarded 4-6 degrees under moderate loads and 9-11 degrees under heavy loads. That is significant. I live in the Midwest and am stuck with Ethanol blended fuel even in the 91-92 octane Tier 1 fuels (Shell included)- that could be part of it, I don't know.

As far as my cleaning method, it was just the old fashion way. In six of the eight cylinders, the intake valves were completely closed, so I just poured in several ounces of carb cleaner right into the intake ports and let the valves soak several hours. Then a majority of the crud comes off with aggressive scraping with an appropriately shaped metal tool. The valve stems block the ability to scrape the area behind them. Vacuum out the mess. Then I poured in fresh solvent and put a small Dremel-type wire brush tool on the end of a cordless drill. Scrub, scrub, scrub. The varnish layer of buildup on the valve surface is very, very hard. This method is limited and removes 90% of the build up at best. The walnut shell blasting would be far better. I have access to such blasting equipment and media, but its ridiculous that I or anyone else has to consider such a chore ...warranty work or not.


If this is not part of the regular scheduled maintenance and I bought this car, I would find an attorney and sue Audi for a refund. The car has a serious defect and no one should have to put up with that.
 
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
I'm not sure what he used. But I do know that he changed oil to Biosyn afterwords.


any pictures of his intake valves before and after using biosyn?
 
I asked. He took photos at one time the manifold was off, but with a [censored] camera. He say's he'll borrow a good camera next time he pulls the intake manifold
 
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
This is what I did to my S4

breather_system_modified.jpg



zoomzoom, this is interesting. I assume you're in a DI mazda by your name. Speed3 or Speed6? I have an 09 Speed3 and just bought Matt Diamond's catch can kit but this seem way better. You wouldn't happen to have a how to writeup or something would you?
 
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