In Europe the engines are able to run in the lean burn stratified mode, because their fuels are much higher quality than ours. This partially mitigates the fuel dilution problem, and thus the amount of oil that the PCV system deposits on the valves.
FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits
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I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
....I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Well thats certainly my approach for my BMW N54 DI engine - assuming GC is considered "high end synthetic" and 7-7.5K OCI is "conservative".
I'd try RLI, but am concerned about warranty issues. GC meets BMW spec; RLI - while probably better for the DI, doesn't.
....I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Well thats certainly my approach for my BMW N54 DI engine - assuming GC is considered "high end synthetic" and 7-7.5K OCI is "conservative".
I'd try RLI, but am concerned about warranty issues. GC meets BMW spec; RLI - while probably better for the DI, doesn't.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Another solution is to eliminate the pcv system and go to a crankcase evacuation system that vents to the atmosphere. Obviously one has to be aware of the environmental or passing emissions inspections issues for that solution.
My concern right now is will atmospheric pressure alone be enought to effectively evacuate the crankcase (for example a catch can with a breather)? My question with an atmospheric-only solution is would one be fixing the pcv-derived deposits issue but create a new issue of water/fuel/acid buildup in the oil?
So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"? I have been thinking about making a simple solution like this which would evacuate gases under vacuum but have nothing returning to the intake to be burned. Of course the lines for the existing PCV to intake etc. would be blocked off with this system. The only lines left open would be the line from the crankcase to the valve cover and the pcv-out line (line from teh valve cover which used to go to the intake but now goes to catch can etc. as shown).
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Another solution is to eliminate the pcv system and go to a crankcase evacuation system that vents to the atmosphere. Obviously one has to be aware of the environmental or passing emissions inspections issues for that solution.
My concern right now is will atmospheric pressure alone be enought to effectively evacuate the crankcase (for example a catch can with a breather)? My question with an atmospheric-only solution is would one be fixing the pcv-derived deposits issue but create a new issue of water/fuel/acid buildup in the oil?
So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"? I have been thinking about making a simple solution like this which would evacuate gases under vacuum but have nothing returning to the intake to be burned. Of course the lines for the existing PCV to intake etc. would be blocked off with this system. The only lines left open would be the line from the crankcase to the valve cover and the pcv-out line (line from teh valve cover which used to go to the intake but now goes to catch can etc. as shown).
Also, does anyone know if the tuning companies such as APR, GIAC, Revo. etc. who reprogram the computer for more boost etc. utilize the lean burn stratified mode? That seems like an obvious potential solution (i.e. make u.s. cars run more like euro. cars and use better fuel here in the U.S. (no cra.p.py ARCO gas))
No. If they did, you'd see much worse problems. Our sulfur levels in fuel are extremely high when compared to the Europeans. In europe the strat mode includes a de-sulfurization cycle to clean the cats. Over here, it does not work, as sulfur builds up too quickly.
Originally Posted By: saaber1
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Another solution is to eliminate the pcv system and go to a crankcase evacuation system that vents to the atmosphere. Obviously one has to be aware of the environmental or passing emissions inspections issues for that solution.
My concern right now is will atmospheric pressure alone be enought to effectively evacuate the crankcase (for example a catch can with a breather)? My question with an atmospheric-only solution is would one be fixing the pcv-derived deposits issue but create a new issue of water/fuel/acid buildup in the oil?
So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"? I have been thinking about making a simple solution like this which would evacuate gases under vacuum but have nothing returning to the intake to be burned. Of course the lines for the existing PCV to intake etc. would be blocked off with this system. The only lines left open would be the line from the crankcase to the valve cover and the pcv-out line (line from teh valve cover which used to go to the intake but now goes to catch can etc. as shown).
I have eliminated pcv system on my S4 and have done several UOA afterward without any problems or issues showing up.
So that is a simple solution.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Another solution is to eliminate the pcv system and go to a crankcase evacuation system that vents to the atmosphere. Obviously one has to be aware of the environmental or passing emissions inspections issues for that solution.
My concern right now is will atmospheric pressure alone be enought to effectively evacuate the crankcase (for example a catch can with a breather)? My question with an atmospheric-only solution is would one be fixing the pcv-derived deposits issue but create a new issue of water/fuel/acid buildup in the oil?
So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"? I have been thinking about making a simple solution like this which would evacuate gases under vacuum but have nothing returning to the intake to be burned. Of course the lines for the existing PCV to intake etc. would be blocked off with this system. The only lines left open would be the line from the crankcase to the valve cover and the pcv-out line (line from teh valve cover which used to go to the intake but now goes to catch can etc. as shown).
I have eliminated pcv system on my S4 and have done several UOA afterward without any problems or issues showing up.
So that is a simple solution.
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
I have eliminated pcv system on my S4 and have done several UOA afterward without any problems or issues showing up.
So that is a simple solution.
Cool! I assume this is not a vacuum assisted evacuation system? It would be nice to have before and after (before and after system installation I mean) TBN and TAN numbers on the UOAs to see if the atmospheric system lead to increased buildup of acids but it sure doesn't appear to be showing up in wear numbers based on those UOAs. At what mileage did you eliminate the PCV?
I have eliminated pcv system on my S4 and have done several UOA afterward without any problems or issues showing up.
So that is a simple solution.
Cool! I assume this is not a vacuum assisted evacuation system? It would be nice to have before and after (before and after system installation I mean) TBN and TAN numbers on the UOAs to see if the atmospheric system lead to increased buildup of acids but it sure doesn't appear to be showing up in wear numbers based on those UOAs. At what mileage did you eliminate the PCV?
No vacuum pump, just went out...
I would say last three UOA's are without PCV, last two for sure.
I would say last three UOA's are without PCV, last two for sure.
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Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
In Europe the engines are able to run in the lean burn stratified mode, because their fuels are much higher quality than ours. This partially mitigates the fuel dilution problem, and thus the amount of oil that the PCV system deposits on the valves.
Most of the above, which I have pointed out in the past, is why I wouldn't buy a car with an FSI engine, which is unsuitable for operating as intended, given second rate fuel and (usually) poor service. When in Rome do as the Romans. For the US that means, drive a car with a simple engine that can take a lot of abuse (also from the dealer). It's why I bought an Audi with a simple 2.8 V6 12 valve engine and not the 1.8T motor, and why I had zero interest in the 2.8 V6 30 valve engine. Of those three engines, the one that I picked, is the most reliable and durable one. If I were living in Western Europe, I'd buy a car with an FSI engine in a heartbeat, here in the US I wouldn't want one no matter how tempting.
In Europe the engines are able to run in the lean burn stratified mode, because their fuels are much higher quality than ours. This partially mitigates the fuel dilution problem, and thus the amount of oil that the PCV system deposits on the valves.
Most of the above, which I have pointed out in the past, is why I wouldn't buy a car with an FSI engine, which is unsuitable for operating as intended, given second rate fuel and (usually) poor service. When in Rome do as the Romans. For the US that means, drive a car with a simple engine that can take a lot of abuse (also from the dealer). It's why I bought an Audi with a simple 2.8 V6 12 valve engine and not the 1.8T motor, and why I had zero interest in the 2.8 V6 30 valve engine. Of those three engines, the one that I picked, is the most reliable and durable one. If I were living in Western Europe, I'd buy a car with an FSI engine in a heartbeat, here in the US I wouldn't want one no matter how tempting.
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?
Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?
Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.
Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?
Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.
Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Anyone have a recommendation for a good oil sampling device? I'm piling on the miles since I did the 10k service, and I'd be interested in doing an in-service UOA when the oil hits the 5k mark. We can see what the numbers look like with a Euro-spec 504.00 oil, instead of the 502.00 that VWoA is pushing and seemingly everyone is using...
BTW, what lab have you guys had the best experience with?
Cheers
BTW, what lab have you guys had the best experience with?
Cheers
Originally Posted By: rshunter
Anyone have a recommendation for a good oil sampling device? I'm piling on the miles since I did the 10k service, and I'd be interested in doing an in-service UOA when the oil hits the 5k mark. We can see what the numbers look like with a Euro-spec 504.00 oil, instead of the 502.00 that VWoA is pushing and seemingly everyone is using...
BTW, what lab have you guys had the best experience with?
Cheers
I like this little blackstone pump. The blackstone sample bottle screws onto it and the oil never contaminates the pump. The plastic hose goes down the dipstick tube. I replace the plastic tubing each time which is only 8-20 cents per foot for the tubing.
Blackstone is a popular choice for the lab also but I wouldn't say it is better than any of the others and obviously you get much better analysis with Terry Dyson's lab but it is more expensive. Stick with one lab once you choose it for consistency of results. Many other labs and possibly other pumps besides blackstone's out there.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/pump.html
Anyone have a recommendation for a good oil sampling device? I'm piling on the miles since I did the 10k service, and I'd be interested in doing an in-service UOA when the oil hits the 5k mark. We can see what the numbers look like with a Euro-spec 504.00 oil, instead of the 502.00 that VWoA is pushing and seemingly everyone is using...
BTW, what lab have you guys had the best experience with?
Cheers
I like this little blackstone pump. The blackstone sample bottle screws onto it and the oil never contaminates the pump. The plastic hose goes down the dipstick tube. I replace the plastic tubing each time which is only 8-20 cents per foot for the tubing.
Blackstone is a popular choice for the lab also but I wouldn't say it is better than any of the others and obviously you get much better analysis with Terry Dyson's lab but it is more expensive. Stick with one lab once you choose it for consistency of results. Many other labs and possibly other pumps besides blackstone's out there.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/pump.html
I just read the thread that the first quote in the OP came from: http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/107764.phtml
Here's my take on the topic, based on nothing but an outsider's view of the debate and my own faculties of reason, such as they are:
- The carbon buildup on the valves themselves could be due to poor quality fuel and inappropriate usage (too many short trips etc.), or it could be due to the obvious oil vapor in the intake tract.
- The aforementioned oil vapor could be caused by a malfunctioning PCV system, volatization of the oil, or some combination thereof.
- Therefore, oil formulation is only one of a few possible causes of the problem.
- HOWEVER, switching oils is the easiest thing for the user to do and, if it works, addresses almost all the possible causes directly or indirectly.
Thoughts? RI_RS4, if you're still here, does that sound about right to you?
Here's my take on the topic, based on nothing but an outsider's view of the debate and my own faculties of reason, such as they are:
- The carbon buildup on the valves themselves could be due to poor quality fuel and inappropriate usage (too many short trips etc.), or it could be due to the obvious oil vapor in the intake tract.
- The aforementioned oil vapor could be caused by a malfunctioning PCV system, volatization of the oil, or some combination thereof.
- Therefore, oil formulation is only one of a few possible causes of the problem.
- HOWEVER, switching oils is the easiest thing for the user to do and, if it works, addresses almost all the possible causes directly or indirectly.
Thoughts? RI_RS4, if you're still here, does that sound about right to you?
Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?
Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?
Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.
Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Not necessarily. As I understand it, the effectiveness of Biosyn comes from the synergistic interactions between PAO, Bio-esters and additives. The total is greater than the some of the parts.
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?
Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?
Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.
Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Not necessarily. As I understand it, the effectiveness of Biosyn comes from the synergistic interactions between PAO, Bio-esters and additives. The total is greater than the some of the parts.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I just read the thread that the first quote in the OP came from: http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/107764.phtml
Here's my take on the topic, based on nothing but an outsider's view of the debate and my own faculties of reason, such as they are:
- The carbon buildup on the valves themselves could be due to poor quality fuel and inappropriate usage (too many short trips etc.), or it could be due to the obvious oil vapor in the intake tract.
- The aforementioned oil vapor could be caused by a malfunctioning PCV system, volatization of the oil, or some combination thereof.
- Therefore, oil formulation is only one of a few possible causes of the problem.
- HOWEVER, switching oils is the easiest thing for the user to do and, if it works, addresses almost all the possible causes directly or indirectly.
Thoughts? RI_RS4, if you're still here, does that sound about right to you?
For the Audi and VW FSI engines, you need to remember that fuel never flows over the back side of the valves normally. It is injected directly into the cylinder. These engines all have cyclonic oil/fuel separators in the PCV system, to allow the volatile fuel components in the oil to flow through the intake, and allow the oil to condense back into the sump.
Since it is volatile fuel components that vaporize out of the oil, the "nasty" components of our poor fuel are left behind in the oil. The volatile fuel components generally burn cleanly, and would not cause significant deposits on the back of the valve. However, the volatized oil that is not condensed back into the engine, can deposit on the valve backs. This has been confirmed by removal of RS4 intake manifolds and of VW and Audi 2.0L TFSI engine heads.
I just read the thread that the first quote in the OP came from: http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/107764.phtml
Here's my take on the topic, based on nothing but an outsider's view of the debate and my own faculties of reason, such as they are:
- The carbon buildup on the valves themselves could be due to poor quality fuel and inappropriate usage (too many short trips etc.), or it could be due to the obvious oil vapor in the intake tract.
- The aforementioned oil vapor could be caused by a malfunctioning PCV system, volatization of the oil, or some combination thereof.
- Therefore, oil formulation is only one of a few possible causes of the problem.
- HOWEVER, switching oils is the easiest thing for the user to do and, if it works, addresses almost all the possible causes directly or indirectly.
Thoughts? RI_RS4, if you're still here, does that sound about right to you?
For the Audi and VW FSI engines, you need to remember that fuel never flows over the back side of the valves normally. It is injected directly into the cylinder. These engines all have cyclonic oil/fuel separators in the PCV system, to allow the volatile fuel components in the oil to flow through the intake, and allow the oil to condense back into the sump.
Since it is volatile fuel components that vaporize out of the oil, the "nasty" components of our poor fuel are left behind in the oil. The volatile fuel components generally burn cleanly, and would not cause significant deposits on the back of the valve. However, the volatized oil that is not condensed back into the engine, can deposit on the valve backs. This has been confirmed by removal of RS4 intake manifolds and of VW and Audi 2.0L TFSI engine heads.
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Ah, okay.
But what I'm trying to get at is the take-home lesson here. As I understand, it's this: There may be many causes, and oil formulation is only one of them, but changing oils is easy and addresses all of them. Is that the right conclusion to draw? Or, is oil type demonstrably the biggest cause whereas none of the other possibilities is as likely?
But what I'm trying to get at is the take-home lesson here. As I understand, it's this: There may be many causes, and oil formulation is only one of them, but changing oils is easy and addresses all of them. Is that the right conclusion to draw? Or, is oil type demonstrably the biggest cause whereas none of the other possibilities is as likely?
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?
Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?
Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.
Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Not necessarily. As I understand it, the effectiveness of Biosyn comes from the synergistic interactions between PAO, Bio-esters and additives. The total is greater than the some of the parts.
Ah, thank you!
Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?
Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?
Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.
Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Not necessarily. As I understand it, the effectiveness of Biosyn comes from the synergistic interactions between PAO, Bio-esters and additives. The total is greater than the some of the parts.
Ah, thank you!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
There is an oil mist in the crankcase if you think about what happens inside an engine.,The oil scraped from the cyl walls the oil flung fron the crank and rods,piston squirters ,Oil launched off the cam ,rockers,lifters [if any] etc. Blowby is anything that gets past the rings ,moisture and oil .
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...
Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
There is an oil mist in the crankcase if you think about what happens inside an engine.,The oil scraped from the cyl walls the oil flung fron the crank and rods,piston squirters ,Oil launched off the cam ,rockers,lifters [if any] etc. Blowby is anything that gets past the rings ,moisture and oil .
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