Fast and Furious come on. I know Power Stop has a 3year 36k warranty. If these companies were selling garbage and rotors were cracking left and right they wouldn't have a decent reputation and be in business for a long time. Can't compare drilled rotors from the companies like EBC , Power Stop, Stop Tech etc with those fly by night eBay farces.
Front brake kit for the hills
- Thread starter schuylkill
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Originally Posted By: AndyinAL
I don't really have a recommendation on pads, I usually just use ceramic Wagner Thermo Quiets because they produce virtually no dust and are generally quiet. Are there pads out there that stop a few feet shorter from 60mph? Probably. 99 times out of 100 though these factors - speed, following distance, situational awareness and decent tires are way more important than ultimate brake pad performance. Especially on modern ABS cars.
I notice the car in question is a standard shift. I never advocate downshifting through the gears to "save the brakes." I would rather do a dozen brake jobs than one clutch job or synchronizer replacement. With that said, if these big hills you are talking about are on the highway I assume, being in the correct gear as you descend down can make a big difference on what is asked of the brakes. Perhaps 4th gear instead of 5th gear. Obviously want to use some sort of engine braking, not neutral or clutch depressed. Chances are you are already employing this tactic and can ignore my entire post.
YMMV
Don't be afraid of engine braking. If you rev-match downshifts then there is no added clutch wear.
I don't really have a recommendation on pads, I usually just use ceramic Wagner Thermo Quiets because they produce virtually no dust and are generally quiet. Are there pads out there that stop a few feet shorter from 60mph? Probably. 99 times out of 100 though these factors - speed, following distance, situational awareness and decent tires are way more important than ultimate brake pad performance. Especially on modern ABS cars.
I notice the car in question is a standard shift. I never advocate downshifting through the gears to "save the brakes." I would rather do a dozen brake jobs than one clutch job or synchronizer replacement. With that said, if these big hills you are talking about are on the highway I assume, being in the correct gear as you descend down can make a big difference on what is asked of the brakes. Perhaps 4th gear instead of 5th gear. Obviously want to use some sort of engine braking, not neutral or clutch depressed. Chances are you are already employing this tactic and can ignore my entire post.
YMMV
Don't be afraid of engine braking. If you rev-match downshifts then there is no added clutch wear.
Originally Posted By: madeej11
Fast and Furious come on. I know Power Stop has a 3year 36k warranty. If these companies were selling garbage and rotors were cracking left and right they wouldn't have a decent reputation and be in business for a long time. Can't compare drilled rotors from the companies like EBC , Power Stop, Stop Tech etc with those fly by night eBay farces.
Find their COO and prove it.
Fast and Furious come on. I know Power Stop has a 3year 36k warranty. If these companies were selling garbage and rotors were cracking left and right they wouldn't have a decent reputation and be in business for a long time. Can't compare drilled rotors from the companies like EBC , Power Stop, Stop Tech etc with those fly by night eBay farces.
Find their COO and prove it.
Originally Posted By: madeej11
Fast and Furious come on. I know Power Stop has a 3year 36k warranty. If these companies were selling garbage and rotors were cracking left and right they wouldn't have a decent reputation and be in business for a long time. Can't compare drilled rotors from the companies like EBC , Power Stop, Stop Tech etc with those fly by night eBay farces.
Cross drilled rotors, whether steel or carbon ceramic, inevitably all do crack. Like it's been pointed out, chamfering the holes allows for more time before cracks occur, because the sharp 90 degree angle of a straight bored hole acts as a stress-riser and is the most prone part of the rotor to cracking. But even chamfered holes still crack too. Google carbon-ceramic rotor crack and I'm sure tons of photos will come up. It's very real and more common than not. Some cracking is deemed ok at least with carbon ceramics.
Fast and Furious come on. I know Power Stop has a 3year 36k warranty. If these companies were selling garbage and rotors were cracking left and right they wouldn't have a decent reputation and be in business for a long time. Can't compare drilled rotors from the companies like EBC , Power Stop, Stop Tech etc with those fly by night eBay farces.
Cross drilled rotors, whether steel or carbon ceramic, inevitably all do crack. Like it's been pointed out, chamfering the holes allows for more time before cracks occur, because the sharp 90 degree angle of a straight bored hole acts as a stress-riser and is the most prone part of the rotor to cracking. But even chamfered holes still crack too. Google carbon-ceramic rotor crack and I'm sure tons of photos will come up. It's very real and more common than not. Some cracking is deemed ok at least with carbon ceramics.
If you still don't believe us, check this out:
https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/dangerous-cross-drilled-rotors/
https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/dangerous-cross-drilled-rotors/
Yes cheese but I wasn't referring to impostor or fakes of EBC,you are. If you get the genuine product should be no problem, cross drilled, slotted or whatever
Also the manufacturers that placed drilled rotors make them so big that they can afford to lose some mass....it is designed in....where as other brakes that you plae drilled rotors on.....you are taking away mass that was designed to be there.
The problem with a drilled rotor in this application is NOT that it'll crack. With any rotor worth buying, that cracking won't even happen until late in the rotor's life, and won't be problematic until the rotor is due for replacement. The real problem is that it's more expensive and of little real benefit in this application. The holes just reduce the surface area and their cooling benefit won't be all that great.
A slotted rotor won't have a significantly reduced surface area, and the slots will continually refresh the pad surface for added bite. But again, more cost for little benefit.
The first question is always whether there's any reason to suspect that the stock brakes are coming up short. Any aftermarket part that improves one thing always comes with a downside, even if it's just extra cost. So if you're going to stray from OE, there should be a reason.
If there's no fade or excess wear on the stock brakes, I wouldn't touch them.
Repeat: If there's no fade or excess wear on the stock brakes, don't touch them.
If there is, the first thing I'd do is get the absolute best rotor I could get my hands on, and then look for pads. Brembo makes high-carbon blank rotors for the front axle. They're not showing up on TireRack's site for some reason, but Bremboparts.com lists them, so TireRack or AutoZone should be able to order them for you. If this were my car, I would look no further. There isn't a heck of a lot in the aftermarket for this car anyway, besides store brands which I wouldn't trust to be better than OE.
Pads will be for the same reason: there just isn't a lot out there worth looking at vs. OE. Brembo makes an OE equivalent, which should be excellent -- but I'm not sure if it'd be better than OE. Worth a shot though. If you want to "upgrade" -- quote marks there because there's always a tradeoff -- you probably want to try EBC Greenstuff first.
Here's Brembo's part listing for your car (assuming I entered the right info): https://www.bremboparts.com/america/en/catalogue-us/hyundai-2012-elantra/005643
A slotted rotor won't have a significantly reduced surface area, and the slots will continually refresh the pad surface for added bite. But again, more cost for little benefit.
The first question is always whether there's any reason to suspect that the stock brakes are coming up short. Any aftermarket part that improves one thing always comes with a downside, even if it's just extra cost. So if you're going to stray from OE, there should be a reason.
If there's no fade or excess wear on the stock brakes, I wouldn't touch them.
Repeat: If there's no fade or excess wear on the stock brakes, don't touch them.
If there is, the first thing I'd do is get the absolute best rotor I could get my hands on, and then look for pads. Brembo makes high-carbon blank rotors for the front axle. They're not showing up on TireRack's site for some reason, but Bremboparts.com lists them, so TireRack or AutoZone should be able to order them for you. If this were my car, I would look no further. There isn't a heck of a lot in the aftermarket for this car anyway, besides store brands which I wouldn't trust to be better than OE.
Pads will be for the same reason: there just isn't a lot out there worth looking at vs. OE. Brembo makes an OE equivalent, which should be excellent -- but I'm not sure if it'd be better than OE. Worth a shot though. If you want to "upgrade" -- quote marks there because there's always a tradeoff -- you probably want to try EBC Greenstuff first.
Here's Brembo's part listing for your car (assuming I entered the right info): https://www.bremboparts.com/america/en/catalogue-us/hyundai-2012-elantra/005643
Originally Posted By: madeej11
Yes cheese but I wasn't referring to impostor or fakes of EBC,you are. If you get the genuine product should be no problem, cross drilled, slotted or whatever
Re-read the article. EBC is saying that they themselves do not even offer a cross-drilled rotors because it is risky and dangerous. You can't get genuine ones from EBC because EBC won't touch them with a ten foot pole.
Yes cheese but I wasn't referring to impostor or fakes of EBC,you are. If you get the genuine product should be no problem, cross drilled, slotted or whatever
Re-read the article. EBC is saying that they themselves do not even offer a cross-drilled rotors because it is risky and dangerous. You can't get genuine ones from EBC because EBC won't touch them with a ten foot pole.
Downshift and pulse brake.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Downshift and pulse brake.
Glad somebody said it before I did. I drive the mountains (10-14% grade) every day and have never had an issue with OEM or equivalent. Even on an automatic. If you get behind a semi you can keep it in 1st or 2nd and hardly touch the brakes...
(I know this has nothing to do with the topic on hand, but it might save the OP from frequent brake changes...)
Downshift and pulse brake.
Glad somebody said it before I did. I drive the mountains (10-14% grade) every day and have never had an issue with OEM or equivalent. Even on an automatic. If you get behind a semi you can keep it in 1st or 2nd and hardly touch the brakes...
(I know this has nothing to do with the topic on hand, but it might save the OP from frequent brake changes...)
Originally Posted By: cheesepuffs
Re-read the article.
Alright.
Quote:
First of all you can see that striped or banding is already appearing after this short driving period which is typical of a brake rotor where the drill holes do not “Overlap” leaving uneven areas of the brake rotor surface contacted by the brake pads.
Quote:
Second amateur rotor drilling companies may not take the time to ensure that their drill holes fall into the vent pockets in the rotor which are between the two faces of the brake rotor. If these THROUGH DRILLED HOLES are drilled right through into the support vanes in the rotor core this will GREATLY weaken the structural strength of the rotor.
(emphasis added)
Pretty clear they're only talking about poorly made drilled rotors.
...Until this point:
Quote:
Even IF the supplier does manage to take the time to locate the through drilled holes to fall into the vent pockets between the vane supports it has been seen on many occasions that cracks develop around the through drilled holes as shown here. Eventually the rotor cracks and will very likely suffer a catastrophic failure.
On "many" occasions. Not all, or even most. "Many" -- which just means "more than once".
This is exactly what one would expect from a company that plays at price points where drilled rotors are hard to do well, as EBC does. It says little about the concept in and of itself. Brembo, AP Racing, Akebono, Stoptech, and the makers of high-end performance cars have no problem with drilled iron rotors, and I know you're not seriously arguing that those companies -- which, admit it, EBC can't hold a candle to -- would knowingly offer "unsafe" and "dangerous" products just for a few bling points.
Again, I AGREE that drilled rotors probably aren't the right call for this application. Just trying to keep it real here.
Re-read the article.
Alright.
Quote:
First of all you can see that striped or banding is already appearing after this short driving period which is typical of a brake rotor where the drill holes do not “Overlap” leaving uneven areas of the brake rotor surface contacted by the brake pads.
Quote:
Second amateur rotor drilling companies may not take the time to ensure that their drill holes fall into the vent pockets in the rotor which are between the two faces of the brake rotor. If these THROUGH DRILLED HOLES are drilled right through into the support vanes in the rotor core this will GREATLY weaken the structural strength of the rotor.
(emphasis added)
Pretty clear they're only talking about poorly made drilled rotors.
...Until this point:
Quote:
Even IF the supplier does manage to take the time to locate the through drilled holes to fall into the vent pockets between the vane supports it has been seen on many occasions that cracks develop around the through drilled holes as shown here. Eventually the rotor cracks and will very likely suffer a catastrophic failure.
On "many" occasions. Not all, or even most. "Many" -- which just means "more than once".
This is exactly what one would expect from a company that plays at price points where drilled rotors are hard to do well, as EBC does. It says little about the concept in and of itself. Brembo, AP Racing, Akebono, Stoptech, and the makers of high-end performance cars have no problem with drilled iron rotors, and I know you're not seriously arguing that those companies -- which, admit it, EBC can't hold a candle to -- would knowingly offer "unsafe" and "dangerous" products just for a few bling points.
Again, I AGREE that drilled rotors probably aren't the right call for this application. Just trying to keep it real here.
over-cooling rotors has real negative advantages too, as the brake temp can fall beneath optimal temperature for pad effectiveness between stops.
Reducing the metal mass in the rotor reduces the amount of braking it can provide before it reaches over temp.
I've tried Raybestos slotted with mixed results. Most consistent results I've had were top-quality solid rotors and experimenting with different pads.
My last truck had weak brakes from the factory which was fine for daily driving but not good when towing, even with e-brakes. I tried many things and came down to solid rotors and trying different pads till I found a set that outdid the others by a small margin.
Paying for quality helped. Not using junk on my wheels.
Reducing the metal mass in the rotor reduces the amount of braking it can provide before it reaches over temp.
I've tried Raybestos slotted with mixed results. Most consistent results I've had were top-quality solid rotors and experimenting with different pads.
My last truck had weak brakes from the factory which was fine for daily driving but not good when towing, even with e-brakes. I tried many things and came down to solid rotors and trying different pads till I found a set that outdid the others by a small margin.
Paying for quality helped. Not using junk on my wheels.
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: cheesepuffs
Re-read the article.
Alright.
Quote:
First of all you can see that striped or banding is already appearing after this short driving period which is typical of a brake rotor where the drill holes do not “Overlap” leaving uneven areas of the brake rotor surface contacted by the brake pads.
Quote:
Second amateur rotor drilling companies may not take the time to ensure that their drill holes fall into the vent pockets in the rotor which are between the two faces of the brake rotor. If these THROUGH DRILLED HOLES are drilled right through into the support vanes in the rotor core this will GREATLY weaken the structural strength of the rotor.
(emphasis added)
Pretty clear they're only talking about poorly made drilled rotors.
...Until this point:
Quote:
Even IF the supplier does manage to take the time to locate the through drilled holes to fall into the vent pockets between the vane supports it has been seen on many occasions that cracks develop around the through drilled holes as shown here. Eventually the rotor cracks and will very likely suffer a catastrophic failure.
On "many" occasions. Not all, or even most. "Many" -- which just means "more than once".
This is exactly what one would expect from a company that plays at price points where drilled rotors are hard to do well, as EBC does. It says little about the concept in and of itself. Brembo, AP Racing, Akebono, Stoptech, and the makers of high-end performance cars have no problem with drilled iron rotors, and I know you're not seriously arguing that those companies -- which, admit it, EBC can't hold a candle to -- would knowingly offer "unsafe" and "dangerous" products just for a few bling points.
Again, I AGREE that drilled rotors probably aren't the right call for this application. Just trying to keep it real here.
Brembo, AP, etc, and major automakers absolutely do contend with cracking rotors in cross-drilled applications. Porsche has service guidelines on how much cracking is allowed before replacement is needed.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/654567-rotors-hairline-cracks.html
Do you think many of the aftermarket companies that people are buying these rotors from have similar guidelines? Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Would most people buying stock sized drilled rotors ever even inspect them periodically anyway? I doubt it. This is not a brand specific issue. Even with chamfered holes to eliminate the highest point of stress, that is still only performed on the outer side of the holes, not the inside of those same holes coming into the vents. So there can be internal cracking occurring earlier than you can’t even see. It’s such a pointless risk for no real benefit. Also even on a Porsche with iron cross drilled brakes, like a Boxster S, the iron brakes are still increased in diameter. What does that tell you? Nothing about stock sized replacement rotors with cross drilling sits well with me at all. And do I believe that legitimate brands that otherwise make excellent products would also sell an inferior product for some bling points? Absolutely they would. Just like you can buy a pair of non-polarized Ray-Bans.
Originally Posted By: cheesepuffs
Re-read the article.
Alright.
Quote:
First of all you can see that striped or banding is already appearing after this short driving period which is typical of a brake rotor where the drill holes do not “Overlap” leaving uneven areas of the brake rotor surface contacted by the brake pads.
Quote:
Second amateur rotor drilling companies may not take the time to ensure that their drill holes fall into the vent pockets in the rotor which are between the two faces of the brake rotor. If these THROUGH DRILLED HOLES are drilled right through into the support vanes in the rotor core this will GREATLY weaken the structural strength of the rotor.
(emphasis added)
Pretty clear they're only talking about poorly made drilled rotors.
...Until this point:
Quote:
Even IF the supplier does manage to take the time to locate the through drilled holes to fall into the vent pockets between the vane supports it has been seen on many occasions that cracks develop around the through drilled holes as shown here. Eventually the rotor cracks and will very likely suffer a catastrophic failure.
On "many" occasions. Not all, or even most. "Many" -- which just means "more than once".
This is exactly what one would expect from a company that plays at price points where drilled rotors are hard to do well, as EBC does. It says little about the concept in and of itself. Brembo, AP Racing, Akebono, Stoptech, and the makers of high-end performance cars have no problem with drilled iron rotors, and I know you're not seriously arguing that those companies -- which, admit it, EBC can't hold a candle to -- would knowingly offer "unsafe" and "dangerous" products just for a few bling points.
Again, I AGREE that drilled rotors probably aren't the right call for this application. Just trying to keep it real here.
Brembo, AP, etc, and major automakers absolutely do contend with cracking rotors in cross-drilled applications. Porsche has service guidelines on how much cracking is allowed before replacement is needed.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/654567-rotors-hairline-cracks.html
Do you think many of the aftermarket companies that people are buying these rotors from have similar guidelines? Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Would most people buying stock sized drilled rotors ever even inspect them periodically anyway? I doubt it. This is not a brand specific issue. Even with chamfered holes to eliminate the highest point of stress, that is still only performed on the outer side of the holes, not the inside of those same holes coming into the vents. So there can be internal cracking occurring earlier than you can’t even see. It’s such a pointless risk for no real benefit. Also even on a Porsche with iron cross drilled brakes, like a Boxster S, the iron brakes are still increased in diameter. What does that tell you? Nothing about stock sized replacement rotors with cross drilling sits well with me at all. And do I believe that legitimate brands that otherwise make excellent products would also sell an inferior product for some bling points? Absolutely they would. Just like you can buy a pair of non-polarized Ray-Bans.
Originally Posted By: cheesepuffs
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Drilled rotors are actually not a good idea.
Hmm... You should tell:
Porsche
BMW
Mercedes
Audi
Ferrari
Lamborghini
And countless others. Yes, you may see cracking in drilled rotors - at the end of their life.
Almost 100% of those cars have carbon-ceramic brakes when you see cross drilling, the rotors are way larger, and they have much more surface area than a stock Hyundai steel rotor to compensate and then some. It’s apples to oranges vs replacing a regular (small) iron blank with rotors that you paid to have swiss-cheesed.
I've seen plenty of Mercedes Benz with regular iron alloy rotors, from C-class and up.
e.g. 2012 C300 4Matic Sport
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/50379/Disc-Brake-Rotor-Front-295mm-Cross-drilled-2044212812/
These don't look like Ceramic rotors, and 295mm rotors, not way larger. My old 08 Passat and current Tiguan has larger diameter rotors from the factory, 312mm.
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Drilled rotors are actually not a good idea.
Hmm... You should tell:
Porsche
BMW
Mercedes
Audi
Ferrari
Lamborghini
And countless others. Yes, you may see cracking in drilled rotors - at the end of their life.
Almost 100% of those cars have carbon-ceramic brakes when you see cross drilling, the rotors are way larger, and they have much more surface area than a stock Hyundai steel rotor to compensate and then some. It’s apples to oranges vs replacing a regular (small) iron blank with rotors that you paid to have swiss-cheesed.
I've seen plenty of Mercedes Benz with regular iron alloy rotors, from C-class and up.
e.g. 2012 C300 4Matic Sport
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/50379/Disc-Brake-Rotor-Front-295mm-Cross-drilled-2044212812/
These don't look like Ceramic rotors, and 295mm rotors, not way larger. My old 08 Passat and current Tiguan has larger diameter rotors from the factory, 312mm.
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All engineering solutions have their strengths and weaknesses and the final product usually reflects the best engineering compromise for the design criteria that was defined to the engineering team. Bringing luxury brands, racing applications and other, totally unrelated examples to a thread that discusses an econobox vehicle, driven on normal roads, simply shows lack of understanding when it comes to engineering solutions and enforces the power of marketing and branding.
On a Hyundai, I wouldn't bother with drilled or slotted rotors on it(and unless the car came stock with them or if you rally/autocross the car there is some justification for it but get a BBK instead).
Get decent non-whitebox rotors like Centric 120s and good pads, maybe semi-metallic ones.
If you need more brake, buy a Genesis with stock Brembos on it(at least on the 3.8L V6 coupe)
Get decent non-whitebox rotors like Centric 120s and good pads, maybe semi-metallic ones.
If you need more brake, buy a Genesis with stock Brembos on it(at least on the 3.8L V6 coupe)
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Originally Posted By: cheesepuffs
Brembo, AP, etc, and major automakers absolutely do contend with cracking rotors in cross-drilled applications. Porsche has service guidelines on how much cracking is allowed before replacement is needed.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/654567-rotors-hairline-cracks.html
Do you think many of the aftermarket companies that people are buying these rotors from have similar guidelines? Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Would most people buying stock sized drilled rotors ever even inspect them periodically anyway? I doubt it. This is not a brand specific issue. Even with chamfered holes to eliminate the highest point of stress, that is still only performed on the outer side of the holes, not the inside of those same holes coming into the vents. So there can be internal cracking occurring earlier than you can’t even see. It’s such a pointless risk for no real benefit. Also even on a Porsche with iron cross drilled brakes, like a Boxster S, the iron brakes are still increased in diameter. What does that tell you? Nothing about stock sized replacement rotors with cross drilling sits well with me at all. And do I believe that legitimate brands that otherwise make excellent products would also sell an inferior product for some bling points? Absolutely they would. Just like you can buy a pair of non-polarized Ray-Bans.
You didn't just say they crack, or that they're inferior. You said they're "risky and dangerous." That's a different claim.
Cheap drilled rotors WILL crack, and are risky and dangerous. Good ones might not even crack in the first place, let alone become risky and dangerous.
Brembo, AP, etc, and major automakers absolutely do contend with cracking rotors in cross-drilled applications. Porsche has service guidelines on how much cracking is allowed before replacement is needed.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/654567-rotors-hairline-cracks.html
Do you think many of the aftermarket companies that people are buying these rotors from have similar guidelines? Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Would most people buying stock sized drilled rotors ever even inspect them periodically anyway? I doubt it. This is not a brand specific issue. Even with chamfered holes to eliminate the highest point of stress, that is still only performed on the outer side of the holes, not the inside of those same holes coming into the vents. So there can be internal cracking occurring earlier than you can’t even see. It’s such a pointless risk for no real benefit. Also even on a Porsche with iron cross drilled brakes, like a Boxster S, the iron brakes are still increased in diameter. What does that tell you? Nothing about stock sized replacement rotors with cross drilling sits well with me at all. And do I believe that legitimate brands that otherwise make excellent products would also sell an inferior product for some bling points? Absolutely they would. Just like you can buy a pair of non-polarized Ray-Bans.
You didn't just say they crack, or that they're inferior. You said they're "risky and dangerous." That's a different claim.
Cheap drilled rotors WILL crack, and are risky and dangerous. Good ones might not even crack in the first place, let alone become risky and dangerous.
OP I have had good results with Akebono Street Performance pads. They are more aggressive than the ProACT line and they have a higher temp rating.
What the other posters said about bleeding the brake lines and making sure the system is full of fresh brake fluid is also excellent advice. I would stick with dot 3 or dot 4, whichever is recommended by the owners manual.
What the other posters said about bleeding the brake lines and making sure the system is full of fresh brake fluid is also excellent advice. I would stick with dot 3 or dot 4, whichever is recommended by the owners manual.
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