Friction modifiers

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Reading around the forum I see friction modifiers being used in manual transmissions to help the syncro's I believe?
What chemical is a friction modifier and how do they work?
If they allow friction on the syncro's how is it they don't make friction on the other parts of the transmission?
 
Originally Posted By: galaxy333
Reading around the forum I see friction modifiers being used in manual transmissions to help the syncro's I believe?
What chemical is a friction modifier and how do they work?
If they allow friction on the syncro's how is it they don't make friction on the other parts of the transmission?


^^I`ve actually wondered that same exact thing.
 
Quote:
What chemical is a friction modifier and how do they work?


The friction modifier chemistry's used for MTLs are proprietary.

Quote:
If they allow friction on the syncro's how is it they don't make friction on the other parts of the transmission?


These specialized friction modifiers (like all friction modifiers) work on the principle of a shearing action at the molecular level.

In the case of FM's for MTLs, they change their friction coefficient from start of engagement to fully engaged.
 
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I think I understand, so when the pressure of pushing the syncros against each other increases the oil shears and breaks down allowing the syncros to do their job?
If that is how they work how is it that the gears don't wear out because there is load on their teeth all the time?
 
Good questions!

The base oil (carrier) is primarily there to provide a film during most operationg regimes.

During start of synchro engagement, the base oil get squeezed out and the special friction modifier(s) provides the proper amount of slip until the synchro is fully enagaged. The special friction modifier allows a change in friction coefficient from start of engagement until full engagement and spin up.

Friction Coefficients

The base oil provides the majority of lubrication during the hydrodynamic regime until the loads become high.

When the loads become high on gear teeth and bearings, it is at this time when the Anti-Wear (AW) additive(s) in MTLs kick in and provides a plastic film providing mixed and boundary lubrication.

Gear teeth loads will vary depending on gear selection and engine torque.

See Lubrication Regimes at:
STLE Basics of Lubrication
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Good questions!

The base oil (carrier) is primarily there to provide a film during most operationg regimes.

During start of synchro engagement, the base oil get squeezed out and the special friction modifier(s) provides the proper amount of slip until the synchro is fully enagaged. The special friction modifier allows a change in friction coefficient from start of engagement until full engagement and spin up.

Friction Coefficients

The base oil provides the majority of lubrication during the hydrodynamic regime until the loads become high.

When the loads become high on gear teeth and bearings, it is at this time when the Anti-Wear (AW) additive(s) in MTLs kick in and provides a plastic film providing mixed and boundary lubrication.

Gear teeth loads will vary depending on gear selection and engine torque.

See Lubrication Regimes at:
STLE Basics of Lubrication



Thank you so much for such a well thought out and easy to understand answer for an interested but novice lubrication (student).
The more a read answers you give the more I understand to leave an oil as manufactured without adding additives to them.
Thanks again, I REALLY do appreciate such a well thought out answer that a novice can understand.
 
Originally Posted By: galaxy333
... the more I understand to leave an oil as manufactured without adding additives to them.



As an engineer, I can tell you that we don't alwasy get things right. But, MOST of the time, the individual does not have the expertise, resources, etc to successfully out-think the massive amount of OEM time/money. Those that think they know better are very often just fooling themselves.

There are times when "mixing" fluids is not at all harmful. Mixing a SN fluid with another brand of certified SN lube, in a engine suited for such products is not detrimental at all. There are other times when the American mentality of "if something is good, then more must be better, and extra ingredients cannot hurt" is a BAD thing ...

When it comes to tribology, I love testing things and analyzing results; that's my day gig. But I'm not so arrogant as to think I can out-smart the chemists who develop the stuff. In that regard, folks like Mola will forget way more than I'll know.
 
If you want to know the chemistry of friction modifiers read all 935 patent since 1976 and you'll get a good idea of many of them.
Searching US Patent Collection...
Results of Search in US Patent Collection db for:
"friction modifier" AND lubricant: 935 patents.
Hits 1 through 12 out of 935
http://patft.uspto.gov/
First 12
PAT. NO. Title
1 8,586,520
Method of improving pour point of lubricating compositions containing polyalkylene glycol mono ethers

2 8,586,516
High TBN / low phosphorus economic STUO lubricants

3 8,580,717
Process for making an overbased, sulfurized salt of an alkylated hydroxyaromatic compound

4 8,575,076
Sliding member and production process thereof

5 8,569,217
Lubricating composition containing a carboxylic functionalised polymer and dispersant

6 8,563,489
Alkylated 1,3-benzenediamine compounds and methods for producing same

7 8,563,487
Friction modifier using adherent metallic multilayered or mixed element layer conversion coatings

8 8,563,486
Lubricant composition and method for producing same

9 8,557,755
Lubricating composition containing an antiwear agent

10 8,557,754
Composition of biodegradable gear oil

11 8,557,752
Lubricating compositions

12 8,551,927
Lubricating composition
 
Thanks guys.

I have always felt the more a consumer knows and studies, the more knowledgeable and discriminate he/she will be in their selection of lubricants for their vehicles.
 
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Quote:
DWC28: If you want to know the chemistry of friction modifiers read all 935 patent since 1976 and you'll get a good idea of many of them.


Please explain to the non-chemist which of these friction modifiers (FMs) are:

1. Differential lubricant FMs
2. LSD FMs
3. ATF FMs
4. MTL FMs
5. Engine Oil FMs
6. hydraulic and compressor oil FMs

and how they differ.
 
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How does this correlate with the OEM's that use ATF's in their manual gearboxes? A large part of me truley beleives this is a cost cutting measure on the assembly line, as well as a positive shift feel/cafe fuel economy trick rather than an actual proper manual trans lube. In most cases, will switching to a properly spec'd, aftermarket MTL provide more protection,a nd more life from a majority of ATF-spec'd manual gearboxes out there?
 
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Originally Posted By: KenO
...A large part of me truley beleives this is a cost cutting measure on the assembly line, as well as a positive shift feel/cafe fuel economy trick rather than an actual proper manual trans lube. In most cases, will switching to a properly spec'd, aftermarket MTL provide more protection,a nd more life from a majority of ATF-spec'd manual gearboxes out there?


I couldn't agree more!
thumbsup2.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: KenO
...A large part of me truley beleives this is a cost cutting measure on the assembly line, as well as a positive shift feel/cafe fuel economy trick rather than an actual proper manual trans lube. In most cases, will switching to a properly spec'd, aftermarket MTL provide more protection,a nd more life from a majority of ATF-spec'd manual gearboxes out there?


I couldn't agree more!
thumbsup2.gif





Thanks Molakule. The 'which' MTL becomes the big question then. Most of the Ford manuals spec ATF (both FWD & RWD), a lot of the BMW gearboxes that I'm familiar with spec ATF, etc. Can differences in friction modifiers effect actual use? Or is most of the issue going to be a function of choosing an MTL that fits the proper viscosity? I know some transmissions are going to feel more notchy with one lube over another, which to me says the fluid isn't allowing the brass synchro's to grab the gears cone, by which is going to cause gearmesh wear on the synchros & engagement teeth. So many things to take ito consideration!!!!!!!
 
Quote:
Can differences in friction modifiers effect actual use?

Without a doubt.

The friction modifier chemistry in ATF is not the same as the friction modifier chemistry in MTL.


Or is most of the issue going to be a function of choosing an MTL that fits the proper viscosity? I know some transmissions are going to feel more notchy with one lube over another, which to me says the fluid isn't allowing the brass synchro's to grab the gears cone, by which is going to cause gearmesh wear on the synchros & engagement teeth.


I don't think it is a matter of fluid being squeezed out as I stated in a previous post.

Sometimes you have to experiment with MTL fluids + , -5 cSt from the specified oil to find a smooth shift.

Quote:
...A modern gearbox is of the constant mesh type, in which all gears are always in mesh. The exception is the reverse idler gear which will be explained later. This constant mesh and the cut of the gears insure a rather quiet transmission. In any one gear, only one of these meshed pairs of gears is locked to the shaft on which it is mounted. The others are being allowed to rotate freely; thus greatly reducing the skill required to shift gears. Most modern cars are fitted with a synchronized gear box, although it is entirely possible to construct a constant mesh gearbox without synchromesh, as found in motorcycles for example.


Shifter Assembly: The gears resting on the top shaft, the input shaft, are locked onto that shaft and rotate at the same rpm as the engine. The bottom output shaft has synchronizers “splined” to this shaft, so they can move around as the gear ratio is changed. The gears on the output (bottom) shaft are allowed to rotate freely on the output shaft or on small roller or “needle” bearings, depending on the horsepower transmitted and the design. The output shaft will rotate at various rpms depending on gear selection. In first gear, for example, you want low output shaft rpm and high torque.

The shifter moves the associated linkage which connects to the shifter forks. The linkages position the shifter forks, and effectively “programs” the shifter forks in order to select the required gear ratio. I.E., for each shift lever position, the shifter forks are moved around to drive the splined synchronizers on the output shaft. The shifter forks have a bore so they can slide on the guide rods. There is a specified clearance between the shifter forks’ bore and the shifter fork guide rods. Lubricant effects: Too high a viscosity lubricant and the shifting will be hard and sluggish. More force will be required to go from one gear to another. Too thin an oil and the forks will wear, the clearances will increase, and the shifting will become sloppy and uncertain. The correct mix of base oil viscosities is needed here to insure good cold weather and hot weather shifting. Synthetics excel here because of their high viscosity index.

Synchronizer: The locking mechanism for any individual gear consists of a collar on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth or “dogs” on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference; one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. (One collar typically serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects the other) In our illustration from above, the bottom or output shaft has splines that mate with the synchronizer “collar.” The synchronizer collar moves transversely on the splines, positioned by the shifter fork. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged, the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch which is attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings also called blocker rings. Notice, before locking and speed synchronization, a lot of shearing takes place at the interfaces and for the reasons given above. Most synchronizer materials are of brass, but newer synchronizers can be made of strengthened graphite composites. Lubricant effects: A special Friction Modifier (FM) additive is incorporated into the base oil to allow just the right amount of friction before engagement. I.E., the FM gives rise to a specific coefficient of friction (COF) to allow engagement without “crunching.” Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF) DO NOT have these specialized FM’s. Note, the specialized FM used in manual transmissions is NOT the same FM used in Limited Slip Differentials, nor is it the same FM used in Automatic Transmissions, nor is it the same FM used in engine oils. It is important to understand that there are different FM chemistries for different automotive applications!


http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission4.htm
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Sometimes you have to experiment with MTL fluids + , -5 cSt from the specified oil to find a smooth shift.


Well how right this is I had been trying Fuchs 75W 80 Kinematic Viscosity at 100ºC DIN 51562-1 9.4 mm²/s

And now have in it Castrol FE75 6.3 cst at 100c
Gosh the difference is night and day maybe there is something extra in the Castrol that suits my gearbox, the Fuch's is a GL5 the Castrol is a GL4 of other specs I cannot find out but my transaxle loves the Castrol.
 
Found better specs which shows why gear shifting when cold was difficult:

Tech Data for Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic manual transmission fluid
Technical Datasheet PDF
Density at 15ºC DIN 51757 0.882 g/ml
Flash Point, CoC DIN ISO 2592 190ºC
Pourpoint DIN ISO 3016 -48ºC
Foaming Tendency Seq. I/II/III ASTM D 892 10/0 ; 20/0 ; 10/0 ml
Dynamic Viscosity at -40ºC DIN 51398 37,000 mPas
Kinematic Viscosity at 40ºC DIN 51562-1 49.8 mm²/s
Kinematic Viscosity at 100ºC DIN 51562-1 9.4 mm²/s
Viscosity Index DIN ISO 2909 175

Castrol Syntrans FE 75W
API GL 4 Ford WSS-M2C200-D2
Typical Characteristics
Name Method Units Syntrans FE 75W
Viscosity, Kinematic 100C ASTM D445 mm²/s 6.3
Viscosity, Brookfield @ -40C DIN 51398 mPa.s (cP) 10000
Viscosity Index ISO 2909 None 154
Viscosity, Kinematic 40C ASTM D445 mm²/s 32.2
Appearance Visual - bright and clear
Density @ 15C DIN EN ISO 12185 g/ml 0.852
Flash Point, COC ISO 2592 °C 226
Pour Point ISO 3016 °C -51

Huge difference in the 40c spec and also the Brookfield -40c spec.
And Ford recommend WSS-M2C200-D2 which the Castrol is.

I tried the Fuch's on Recommendation and didn't have to pay for the Castrol because the Fuch's didn't work, learned a lot how small differences make huge problems.
It makes me think when messing with additives how much harm can be done, in a gearbox you can feel it in an engine you might feel a bit of something but not like a gearbox but inside the engine bad things could be happening.
 
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Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
That is just why one shouldn't mess with unqualified fluids or aftermarket additives.


Exactly.

You need to match those technical details not just the
API weights which I have come to learn are often times VERY misleading. The other critical aspect is whether or not the
vehicle calls for GL-4 or GL-5.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
That is just why one shouldn't mess with unqualified fluids or aftermarket additives.


Exactly.

You need to match those technical details not just the
API weights which I have come to learn are often times VERY misleading. The other critical aspect is whether or not the
vehicle calls for GL-4 or GL-5.


Yes I've learn't and thought it would help some other enthusiast from making my mistake, even after more than a week of reading and writing to oil manufacturers I still got it wrong, I do think even oil manufacturers don't take enough care as I wrote to 4 different ones and all 4 sent the wrong advice, this is a case where Ford got it 100% correct and maybe why I could only find the Ford marketed lubricant and the Castrol lubricant to match the Ford specification.
If this helps 1 person I feel I've helped a little, although all this information is available on here I find it difficult working the search function to find specific information.
 
We aim to give the correct skinny.

I have only had luck with the search function by putting double quotes around the word or words.

There does need to be a better search function and simple instructions on its use.
 
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