France phasing out diesel vehicles

[Burt]

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141201...y#disqus_thread

Says they are changing fuel taxes to favor gasoline engines because they pollute less. About time they figured that out.

 

[sasilverbullet]

I think that was just in Paris.

 

[The motor guy]

Diesels have always polluted less than gas engines.

 

[tinmanSC]

Originally Posted By: Burt
http://www.autonews.com/article/20141201...y#disqus_thread

Says they are changing fuel taxes to favor gasoline engines because they pollute less. About time they figured that out.

Huh? Diesels don't pollute more, it's just more visible because the pollutants are larger than (I think?) 20 microns where as gasoline pollutants are less than 20 microns.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Diesels have always polluted less than gas engines.


I agree, But getting someone else to believe it....Good Luck!

The particulate "smoke" people see will always make them think....Gross Polluter.

 

[artificialist]

It depends what pollutant you want to measure.
CO2
CO
NOx
HC
PM

Diesels do work extremely well on all counts with modern smog equipment. The soot is a thing of the past because of DPFs. I don't see why a certain engine type has to be banned if it meets limits.

What is going to happen to the existing cars that have little or no smog equipment?

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Originally Posted By: Burt
...About time they figured that out.

Absolutely agree. Unlike North America we (in NZ) have always had significant numbers of light diesel vehicles (most without particulate filters) and there is no periodic test for particulate emissions. The engines last a long time, and given only minimal maintenance eventually produce more smoke and present a disproportionate level of long-term health risk in traffic-dense areas. Perhaps the particulate filters we have had since '06 are the answer but it's too little too late.

I love diesel technology and even did my final paper on the subject in uni, but improvements in gasoline engine technology have made them nearly as economical as diesels - in small cars at least. Our government has accidentally killed the market in small car diesels anyway by taxing them all at a rate of 8.0 L/100km which handicaps the majority which have a much better return.

 

[gathermewool]

Numb nuts rolling coal don't help. Rich tunes on "race" cats stink, but nothing smells worse than a mod'd and smoke-tuned diesel. WRT emissions, it's all a game of which pollutant is determined to be the worst. NOX is bad? Add more EGR and reduce the adiabatic flame front. Particulates? Add some more expensive emissions control to clean that up, too.

While newer emissions controls are undoubtedly more expensive, they also seem to be much better, at least in the short-term, compared to cars putting around when I was a kid - 80's and early 90's cars. In today's day and age, the old schnauz can't really detect any emissions from newer gassers and diesels. We won't count warm-up time, though, as every car I've ever owned smelled at least a little rich on cold start-up.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool

While newer emissions controls are undoubtedly more expensive, they also seem to be much better, at least in the short-term, compared to cars putting around when I was a kid - 80's and early 90's cars. In today's day and age, the old schnauz can't really detect any emissions from newer gassers and diesels. We won't count warm-up time, though, as every car I've ever owned smelled at least a little rich on cold start-up.

Yes, all engines will create more HC and CO when cold, and in order to reduce that problem, auto makers create ways to make the engine warm up more quickly, locate catalytic converters closer to the cylinder head, and sometimes add electric air pumps that operate for a few minutes after startup.

I don't know which has lower cold start emissions, a modern gasoline engine or a modern diesel.

 

[ET16]

That's strange; they had the opposite view (and taxed Diesel fuel less) for a long time.

 

[kozanoglu]

France is doing harakiri? Do not believe they are willing to hammer the last nail into the coffin of their dying auto industry.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
It depends what pollutant you want to measure.
CO2
CO
NOx
HC
PM

^ This.


Originally Posted By: artificialist
I don't see why a certain engine type has to be banned if it meets limits.

Looks like they're just trying to undo the incentives that favor diesel engines, not to ban diesel engines outright. Am I missing something?


Originally Posted By: artificialist
What is going to happen to the existing cars that have little or no smog equipment?

From the article:

"Valls also said the government was working on plans to widen the number of beneficiaries of a subsidy for the conversion of old diesel engines in areas with anti-pollution plans."

 

[shDK]

Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
France is doing harakiri? Do not believe they are willing to hammer the last nail into the coffin of their dying auto industry.


Not really.

Both Renault and Peugeot/Citroen produce good small economical turbocharged 3 and 4 cyllinder petrol engines.

The reasson some European countries try to reduce the number of diesel cars. Is that experts starts to realize that even though dpf's reduce the particles, there are still lots of particles left that is to small to burn, and harder to measure. But the small size also makes them go to our lungs and blood way easier.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Originally Posted By: shDK
the small size also makes them go to our lungs and blood way easier.


Yep, the latest pugs sold here use the 1.2 triple and 1.6 four cylinder gasoline turbos, but a diesel is still offered.
http://www.peugeot.co.nz/media/deliacms/media//20/2046-95b921.pdf

 

[weasley]

It's also about NOx. Diesels produce this more readily than gasolines - you can tune the engine to run cooler (EGR) and then deal with the resultant PM in the exhaust (DPF) Or you can run the engine hot and use SCR to deal with the NOx in the exhaust - this needs an additional AdBlue tank and catalyser though. NOx is a major cause of smog and cardiopulmonary afflictions.

On the PM thing, DI gasolines are putting out reasonable levels of PM, but as stated they are smaller (and thus more damaging). We may soon see the need for GPFs to hit future Euro norms.

 

[kozanoglu]

shDK, what are they going to do with the established high demand for small diesel engined cars and vans? Easier said than done. I prefer a diesel over gas. Torque, once felt, can not be forgotten/given up.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
About 80 percent of French motorists drive diesel-powered cars.

Its a friggin cash grab nothing more or less. They couldn't give a rats rear about the pollution.
France is a little Mikey Mouse socialist state that is beyond broke. Need cash? No problem!
Make a new tax for the children or the environment its that simple.

 

[Burt]

My experience with diesel is that yes in theory you can chemically treat the exhaust and filter it to make it clean, but complexity of the system isn't worth the benefits.

Also when I have been to European cities, they reek of diesel exhaust and I think there is soot on the buildings.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
...what are they going to do with the established high demand for small diesel engined cars and vans? ...
It's fairly obvious that total cost of ownership rather than some perception of "torque" will determine what most people choose to buy.

 

[MCompact]

Note Commandment Number 2: Al's Commandments