Fram Ultra Startup ticks.

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Propflux01
So much for those that don’t believe tighter filtration = less flow....

So much for those that don't understand how a positive displacement oiling system works.

Then so much for the OP's (and others on this post) ticking noises. I am sure they are simply a figment of imagination, not possibly caused by a FRAM UG filter...

The point was if it's caused by the Ultra is not because it's "restrictive to flow", because it's not restrictive and probably flows better than most on the market. A positive displacement oil pump will supply the same volume of oil to the engine even with a more restrictive filter installed unless the pump hits pressure relief, which usually can't happen unless the engine is revved pretty high with cold oil, or the filter is totally clogged up and its bypass valve is super small causing the pump outlet pressure to rise and hit pressure relief (doubt that's the case here).

It's more likely caused by a ADBV that's leaking down over night. I asked the OP if he's hearing this every time the engine is started after sitting, but he's not responded.

 

[Propflux01]

If the filter is straight up and down, and not sideways, the ADBV does not accomplish much. I find it ironic that several posters on here have an issue with the UG, but when another filter is used, including the TG, the problem mysteriously disappears. This indicates to me it is not an ADBV issue. But for arguments sake, lets say it was, in that case, then it would appear there is something inherently defective about this particular filter, considering it has been reported on a variety of vehicles in this thread alone., yet when replaced with another brand or type, the issue resolves itself. I would guess the tick everyone claims to have is probably a result of oil not reaching the top end as quickly as it would normally with other filters. Not enough to trip the bypass, yet not quite enough to reach the top end as quickly. Remember, pressure is what opens the bypass. You cannot have a bypass open until the oil has met its restriction, which is the last place oil will stop before splashing out and returning to the pan (rockers). If the oil takes more time to get to that point before building pressure, because of a restricted flow, the top end parts will momentarily starve, make a mechanical noise, until oil reaches it. With a less restrictive filter, the oil gets there quick enough not to be an issue.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
If the filter is straight up and down, and not sideways, the ADBV does not accomplish much. I find it ironic that several posters on here have an issue with the UG, but when another filter is used, including the TG, the problem mysteriously disappears. This indicates to me it is not an ADBV issue. But for arguments sake, lets say it was, in that case, then it would appear there is something inherently defective about this particular filter, considering it has been reported on a variety of vehicles in this thread alone., yet when replaced with another brand or type, the issue resolves itself.

It's been discussed many times in this forum over the years that regardless of oil filter orientation the ADBV does still prevent oil drain back to the pan and therefor prevents "dry starts" (ie, the oil galleries and filter that have lost oil volume). Anytime the oil filter is physically located above the oil level in the sump, oil can drain back down (siphon) to the sump oil level due to gravity regardless of filter orientation.

Any oll filter can have an ADBV that can leak down.

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
I would guess the tick everyone claims to have is probably a result of oil not reaching the top end as quickly as it would normally with other filters. Not enough to trip the bypass, yet not quite enough to reach the top end as quickly. Remember, pressure is what opens the bypass. You cannot have a bypass open until the oil has met its restriction, which is the last place oil will stop before splashing out and returning to the pan (rockers). If the oil takes more time to get to that point before building pressure, because of a restricted flow, the top end parts will momentarily starve, make a mechanical noise, until oil reaches it. With a less restrictive filter, the oil gets there quick enough not to be an issue.

With a positive displacement oil pump, the volume delivered to the engine is going to be the same even if there's more flow resistance, unless the pump's pressure relief valve is opening for some reason like I explained in an earlier post. I doubt that's happening here unless the engine is being revved up very high, which I doubt anyone here is doing, or there's something going haywire with the pump's pressure relief valve.

There's s difference between a filter's bypass valve and an oil pump's pressure relief valve. They operate independently. The filter's bypass valve can open up before the pump goes into relief, but that will not decrease any oil volume getting to the engine. The only thing that reduces oil volume delivery to the engine is the oil pump going into pressure relief, which then sends some output oil volume back to the sump or back to the inlet side of the pump that would have otherwise went into the engine's oiling system.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
And?


And I was hoping somebody could confirm my suspicion that the TG doesn't have metal end caps.

 

[CR94]

When these engines supposedly "tick," does that continue after oil pressure is high enough to turn off the idiot light (or show on a pressure gauge)? Does it occur only on the first start after an oil change, or during subsequent starts as well? If it happens only the first time after an oil change, and pressure is not building normally, there's another long-shot possibility nobody has mentioned yet.

Circa 35-40 years ago, my brother had a VW Dasher on which the oil pump tended to lose its prime during oil changes. Then, trying to pump air when the engine was started, it couldn't create enough pressure to overcome the spring force on the anti-drainback valve of some filters within reasonable time. After an unreasonably long time of running with no oil pressure, like 20-30 seconds, it usually would start pumping normally. On subsequent starts, the problem did not occur. I took to sucking on the center outlet holes of filters in stores to compare how difficult anti-drainback valves were to open. They varied a lot.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
And?

And I was hoping somebody could confirm my suspicion that the TG doesn't have metal end caps.

They don't as shown by dozens of TG cut & post threads. You need to read this forum more.

 

[DoubleWasp]

It being a flow issue makes no sense. If it were a flow issue, the bypass would pop open and let the oil do its work. A filter isn't going to impede oil from getting to the engine.

Likewise, it is beyond the edge of rational thinking to believe any new, clean filter flows less than an old dirty one. If it were a flow issue, all of these engines would start making this very same noise as any filter of any manufacturer became restricted by contaminants. I've seen engines with filters in every sort of distress, including being plugged with mud-like substance from water contamination, and still not heard a startup rattle.

This theory is completely unbelievable.

ADBV issues? The marine LS motors have their oil filters higher than the throttle body with no ADBV. Never heard a startup rattle on an operating fill.

There does seem to be something going on. What? I don't know. I have somewhere around 35 Fram Ultras in use right now, and not an untoward noise from any of them, including the LS motors.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Propflux01
If the filter is straight up and down, and not sideways, the ADBV does not accomplish much. I find it ironic that several posters on here have an issue with the UG, but when another filter is used, including the TG, the problem mysteriously disappears. This indicates to me it is not an ADBV issue. But for arguments sake, lets say it was, in that case, then it would appear there is something inherently defective about this particular filter, considering it has been reported on a variety of vehicles in this thread alone., yet when replaced with another brand or type, the issue resolves itself.

It's been discussed many times in this forum over the years that regardless of oil filter orientation the ADBV does still prevent oil drain back to the pan and therefor prevents "dry starts" (ie, the oil galleries and filter that have lost oil volume). Anytime the oil filter is physically located above the oil level in the sump, oil can drain back down (siphon) to the sump oil level due to gravity regardless of filter orientation.

Any oll filter can have an ADBV that can leak down.

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
I would guess the tick everyone claims to have is probably a result of oil not reaching the top end as quickly as it would normally with other filters. Not enough to trip the bypass, yet not quite enough to reach the top end as quickly. Remember, pressure is what opens the bypass. You cannot have a bypass open until the oil has met its restriction, which is the last place oil will stop before splashing out and returning to the pan (rockers). If the oil takes more time to get to that point before building pressure, because of a restricted flow, the top end parts will momentarily starve, make a mechanical noise, until oil reaches it. With a less restrictive filter, the oil gets there quick enough not to be an issue.

With a positive displacement oil pump, the volume delivered to the engine is going to be the same even if there's more flow resistance, unless the pump's pressure relief valve is opening for some reason like I explained in an earlier post. I doubt that's happening here unless the engine is being revved up very high, which I doubt anyone here is doing, or there's something going haywire with the pump's pressure relief valve.

There's s difference between a filter's bypass valve and an oil pump's pressure relief valve. They operate independently. The filter's bypass valve can open up before the pump goes into relief, but that will not decrease any oil volume getting to the engine. The only thing that reduces oil volume delivery to the engine is the oil pump going into pressure relief, which then sends some output oil volume back to the sump or back to the inlet side of the pump that would have otherwise went into the engine's oiling system.


Any oil filter, yes. But why only these? Why does the noise go away on these vehicles after filter change to another type/brand? Perhaps the ADBV is defective. Or are you going to blame this on the engines involved?

I am aware of the differences between pressure relief and bypass. What you still have not accounted for is what I stated earlier, about not enough pressure to move a bypass or relief, but still enough to slowly move oil. EVERY filter has a resistance to flow. I don’t care what it’s made of. Remove the filter and replace it with a dummy and delta will be lower. What I was trying to get across was perhaps the finer filter capability of the UG is causing the oil flow to be moving slower across the filter area. While the restricted flow is not causing enough backside pressure, enough to trigger a pressurized relief or bypass valve, it is causing the oil to take slightly longer to reach the topmost part of the engine. The metal to metal ticking noise would seem to accommodate this theory. If it’s not the filter, even though the symptoms go away after replacing it, then what could it possibly be?

 

[Ded Mazai]

I think part of the problem is in the Fram's bypass valve design. If you look at it you will see that the plastic legs partially block the oil passage. No matter how much pressure you apply you won't get higher flow through the bypass valve. And maybe the thick and relatively low surface area filter medium in the Fram ultra causes extra resistance when the oil is cold. So it takes longer time to fill the oil system completely when starting a cold engine because the reduction valve in the oil pump opens.

 

[goodtimes]

The last Ultra I used on an 02 Camry v6 had a slight bit of start up clatter. Filter angles base down. I put the Toyota OE on 90915-yzzD1 and then it was quiet. I used Ultras before on that vehicle and didn't notice any noises.
Looking at the pics and my own cut opens of the XG3614, the only observation I see from pics is the center tube holes are partially covered by a rather thick "X" from the steel mesh. Oil has to flow around the X. On mine I noticed the adbv seal area was roughly finished, and the inlet holes too far in, possibly ruining the adbv seal.
The other factor may be wear in the engine. Mine was about 170K when it happened. Maybe the oil pump gets worn, they do that. Maybe the Ultra does have more pressure drop than thought, it is a mystery, but it seems to happen to them more.

 

[JeepWJ19]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
And?

And I was hoping somebody could confirm my suspicion that the TG doesn't have metal end caps.

They don't as shown by dozens of TG cut & post threads. You need to read this forum more.

+1

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Any oll filter can have an ADBV that can leak down.

Any oil filter, yes. But why only these? Why does the noise go away on these vehicles after filter change to another type/brand? Perhaps the ADBV is defective. Or are you going to blame this on the engines involved?

That's why I think it's a leaky ADBV. Plus it starts to show up well into the use of the filter most of the time, which says the ADBV could be losing it's sealing ability with time. It could also be that these particular engines are much more sensitive to a leaky ADBV. In my experience, every vehicle I've ever owned has never made any kind of start-up noise, even if I drain the oil hot over night and then install a new dry oil filter and oil in the morning and fire up the engine. That kind of engine will not make any noises due to a leaky ADBV because leaving the filter off the engine over night is pretty much the worst case scenario to drain all the oil galleries above the oil filter.

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
I am aware of the differences between pressure relief and bypass. What you still have not accounted for is what I stated earlier, about not enough pressure to move a bypass or relief, but still enough to slowly move oil.

If that was the case then it would mean the oil pump is defective and weak. Positive displacement oil pumps don't move oil slowly if their pressure relief valve is closed unless they are losing pumping performance from wear. And as stated earlier, the filter's bypass valve has nothing to do with the oil pump's pumping performance.

The only time a healthy oil pump is going to "move oil slowly" is if the pump's pressure relief valve is opened up when it shouldn't be.

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
EVERY filter has a resistance to flow. I don’t care what it’s made of. Remove the filter and replace it with a dummy and delta will be lower. What I was trying to get across was perhaps the finer filter capability of the UG is causing the oil flow to be moving slower across the filter area.

A more restrictive oil filter doesn't cause oil to move slower through it unless the PD oil pump's pressure relief valve is opened. Even though the FU is efficient, it's not flow restrictive. Jay Buckley was asked about the Ultras flow vs pressure drop data and he responded in this thread: LINK

The consensus in that discussion is that the Ultra was better flowing than a PureOne (both similar sized filters compared), and the PureOne had the flow performance curve data supplied by Purolator with hot oil (shown below). And if Filter A is less restrictive than Filter B with hot oil, then Filter A will also be less restrictive with cold oil. Any filter with this kind of flow performance is not going to cause any oil flow issues to the engine. For years there was a false rumor all over the internet that PureOne filters were "flow restrictive" because they were so efficient. Well, when Purolator ran a flow test on one all that went right out the window. But it takes years of showing tangible data that a false rumor is just that.



Originally Posted By: Propflux01
While the restricted flow is not causing enough backside pressure, enough to trigger a pressurized relief or bypass valve, it is causing the oil to take slightly longer to reach the topmost part of the engine. The metal to metal ticking noise would seem to accommodate this theory. If it’s not the filter, even though the symptoms go away after replacing it, then what could it possibly be?

If the pump's pressure relief valve is not opening then all the flow coming out of the pump has to go through the oil filter and engine's oiling system - unless the pump is worn and weak as mentioned earlier. And again, the fitler's bypass valve has no bearing on the oil volume delivered to the engine. If the filter's bypass valve opens while the pump's relief valve is closed, then again all oil volume coming out of the oil pump will go through the filter and engine.

Still think it's a leaky ADBV on an engine that is sensitive to filter and gallery leak down.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
So, went back to the Ultra last oil change. The noise came back, ughhh. Can't be the filter, this makes no sense. Bought another TG and installed it on yesterdays oil change. Gone again!!. Quiet as a mouse. So, I guess I will be using the TG for now on.

Are you making these conclusions based on what you're hearing on 1st start-up right after a filter change, or are you hearing start-up noise at every start-up days after making the filter change?

The noise started after an oil change with ultras starting two oil changes ago. For almost 3 years prior to that nothing no noises using ultras. Why i noticed. One time I changed to a TG halfway through the oil change. Noise gone. Most recently I went back to a tough guard right at the beginning. Noise gone. As far as anti drain back quite a bit of oil came out when I pulled the ultra. A 6.0 filter is up and down so the oil pours out all over your hand during removal. There was quite a bit of oil in front of ultra over half a quart after sitting for several hours. So i do not think its adb. That and the tick is not instantaneous it happens 10 to 15 seconds after startup similar to a piston slap but very slight. Not a dry start. More of a restriction at start. all I know is using a TG instead of an XG means no ticking noises. quiet

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
So, went back to the Ultra last oil change. The noise came back, ughhh. Can't be the filter, this makes no sense. Bought another TG and installed it on yesterdays oil change. Gone again!!. Quiet as a mouse. So, I guess I will be using the TG for now on.

Are you making these conclusions based on what you're hearing on 1st start-up right after a filter change, or are you hearing start-up noise at every start-up days after making the filter change?

The noise started after an oil change with ultras starting two oil changes ago. For almost 3 years prior to that nothing no noises using ultras. Why i noticed. One time I changed to a TG halfway through the oil change. Noise gone. Most recently I went back to a tough guard right at the beginning. Noise gone. As far as anti drain back quite a bit of oil came out when I pulled the ultra. A 6.0 filter is up and down so the oil pours out all over your hand during removal. There was quite a bit of oil in front of ultra over half a quart after sitting for several hours. So i do not think its adb. That and the tick is not instantaneous it happens 10 to 15 seconds after startup similar to a piston slap but very slight. Not a dry start. More of a restriction at start. all I know is using a TG instead of an XG means no ticking noises. quiet


Doesn't make much sense, because if it was due to restriction you'd be hearing it the first time you installed the Ultra and at every start-up, and you would have heard it with every Ultra you've ever used. Just because there is some oil still in the filter doesn't mean there could have been some partial leak down of the oiling system above the oil filter.

Since the noise starts 10~15 seconds after the start-up, it very well could be piston slap. My Vette had a mild case of piston slap and it didn't start until 10~15 seconds after start-up, then disappeared in a minute or so - and it didn't do it every time I did a cold start. If the filter's resistance was the cause, you'd have ticking noise all the time, not just at start-up. Still suspect a leaky ADBV as the real cause.

 

[MParr]

Looks like this problem has been covered before and it has nothing to do with oil filters from any manufacturers. Taking you back to an old thread. The GM TSB is referenced.

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
I had blamed oil filters for this before. I guess it wasn't the lowly PF48E that was giving me fits (to be fair, it's happened some with the Mobil 1 filter also). I guess I'm back to the OEM PF48E that is the OE filter and cheaper. I had really thought this filter was the problem, however, this bulletin describes my situation to a "T". Only difference is the onset seems to be a little later. Maybe this applies to you as well:

# 01-06-01-028C: Engine Knock on Cold Start - (Apr 5, 2016)
Subject: Engine Knock on Cold Start

Models: 1999-2006 Chevrolet and GMC C/K Pickup and Utility Models
2002-2016 Cadillac Escalade Models
2007-2013 Chevrolet Silverado
2014 Chevrolet Silverado 1500
2015-2016 Chevrolet Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe
2007-2013 GMC Sierra
2007-2014 GMC Yukon Denali, Yukon XL Denali
2014 GMC Sierra 1500
2015-2016 GMC Sierra, Yukon Models
Equipped with 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L or 6.2L Gas Engine

Attention: This Bulletin also applies to any of the above models that may be
Export vehicles.

This Bulletin has been revised to update the Models section. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 01-06-01-028B.
Some of the above vehicles may exhibit an engine knock noise that begins in the first 19,000-24,000 km (12,000-15,000 mi) of use. The knock noise is most often noticed during initial start-up and typically disappears within the first 5-30 seconds (may last longer in extreme cold temperatures). The noise is usually more noticeable on the initial start-up when the temperature is below 10°C (50°F) and may be more pronounced on the first cold start following a long trip.
This noise may be caused by an interaction between carbon that has formed on the piston, the piston motion and the cylinder wall. GM Powertrain Engineering, and an analysis of engines with this condition, has confirmed that the noise is not detrimental to the performance, reliability or durability of the engine. THIS NOISE DOES NOT HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE LONGEVITY OF ANY OF THE ENGINE COMPONENTS.
Important :
At this time, attempts to repair this condition by replacing the engine assembly or pistons are not recommended.

Please share the information found in this bulletin with customers who inquire about this condition. In the event they have additional questions or concerns, please advise your District Manager Aftersales (U.S.) (in Canada, District Manager - Customer Care and Service Process (DM-CCSP)

 

[DoubleWasp]

So the solution is to drive the whizz out of it.

No wonder I've never had that problem. When our trucks are loaded up, they see 3-4000 rpm under high load frequently.

Good to know, however.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
I think part of the problem is in the Fram's bypass valve design. If you look at it you will see that the plastic legs partially block the oil passage. No matter how much pressure you apply you won't get higher flow through the bypass valve.


I HONESTLY don't think the by-pass valve is 100% open for more than a micro-fraction of a second,

...if it EVER gets to 100% open (which I HIGHLY doubt it ever does).

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Propflux01
So much for those that don’t believe tighter filtration = less flow....


That's one reason I only use MC filters on my Fords.

+1

 

[Linctex]

Concerning restriction with synthetic media:

Quote:
"As example, a 3 micron beta 200 microglass element has less restriction than a 30 micron paper element.
Filter paper manufacture is not an exact science. In many paper elements, as much as 40% of the filter may not pass oil at all, thus reducing contaminant holding capacity and increasing flow resistance. Conversely, a "manufactured" microglass element can flow thorugh 100% of its area which results in considerably increased contaminant capacity along with lower DP/resistance compared with a paper filter medium."

George Morrison, STLE CLS
(rest in peace)

 

[Trav]

I had the same thing happen on a GM 3.8. The naysayers went through all the usual B.S. it must be a bad oil pump, bad bearings, my lack of understanding on so on. The engine was rebuilt with a new pump, pickup and bearings, etc.

Changed the filter to a Napa Gold like it always had, same oil just a filter change and it never made another sound at startup. There has to be something not compatible with these FU filters on some engines.