Four Soldiers and a Tank Lost possibly dead Lithuania

Odd.

I'll withhold any judgement or opinion until further details are confirmed.

Yes. these kind of things do happen during training exercises involving tracked vehicles in swampy unfamiliar terrain.
Source: I been a Commander of a unit that has fielded M88s.
These are large tracked recovery vehicles as heavy as most main battle tanks and they do get around the area a lot, arguably even more than the Tanks and self propelled howitzers they usually support and breakdowns, or bog-downs, happen all over a units map.
So they will generally see more miles and more unfamilar terrain, than their supported elements.

On the other hand there is a border right next door full of angry young men, who know we been sending more weapons to Ukraine than the entire 3 year military budget of Russia.
So there is that, but I am not one to jump to the foul play conclusion, because, as I said, these things do happen.

Will be interetsing to see the outcome of the investigation.
 
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M88s are not particularily modern.
They are supposed to have a GPS in the later models though.

Did you guys get GPS or Blue Force Trackers when garrisoned/training? We didn't get them in our humvees during training as late as 2014.
 
Civilian nav systems often direct people to drive into a lake. Is the military stuff any better?
 
Yes, landnav maps should have bodies of water but that's going off our maps at our facilities. I'm not sure if Lithuania would have maps like that but I would assume so.



It may not have GPS/blue force trackers, but I'm wondering why they didn't use the radio. If it sank fast enough I suppose they could have been focusing on getting out of the vehicle instead.
Worked in Lithuania in 2017. The much of the "off grid: terrain was similar to the terrain one might find in Northern Wisconsin. I am not sure a terrain map exclusively would have prevented this accident. Low water features are often dynamic in nature, ever evolving. Sometimes minor excavation miles away can change water features resulting in new/ undiscovered risks.

Of note, Wisconsin is a leading cranberry producer, about 60 percent of all U.S. production. Cranberries are typically grown in marshes and bogs.
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Not getting any better...

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Continues to sink. Blast.
Not sure how it works but my guess is - pulling something out of sticky mud is function of the surface in contact with the mud ? It's like having something immerged in glue... Pulling out a 1000lb spike would be easier than pulling out a 20lb 3x3 sheet of metal. And this thing is 70 tons of surface, nooks and crannies.

I'm not there and I'm no expert, but I wonder why (and if) they are not trying to stabilize a vertical well/shaft over the hatch(es), and pump it out. Probably can't be done to stay tight enough...
 
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And this thing is 70 tons of surface, nooks and crannies.
I've seen the name of the vehicle but never looked it up until today. All along, I was thinking it was just an armored-type personnel carrier, then I saw you reference "70 tons" as well as that referenced in another story. What in the world is available to lift that weight (before it's sunk in mud) ?
 
My guess would be one crane per anchor point. Apparently that's the other issue, they can't bring them there. Or at least couldn't.
 
Not getting any better...

View attachment 270925


Continues to sink. Blast.
Not sure how it works but my guess is - pulling something out of sticky mud is function of the surface in contact with the mud ? It's like having something immerged in glue... Pulling out a 1000lb spike would be easier than pulling out a 20lb 3x3 sheet of metal. And this thing is 70 tons of surface, nooks and crannies.

I'm not there and I'm no expert, but I wonder why (and if) they are not trying to stabilize a vertical well/shaft over the hatch(es), and pump it out. Probably can't be done to stay tight enough...

I've watched off-road recovery companies (Matt's off-road, HeavyD) recover vehicles that were only partially sunk in mud, like only up to the frame, and those required Herculean effort with multiple heavy lift rigs and lots of digging even when the recovery rigs were on solid ground. I imagine this terrain makes it ten times harder to get the amount of rigs needed out there. And they need to do it before the mud hardens otherwise it's impossible.
 
I've watched off-road recovery companies (Matt's off-road, HeavyD) recover vehicles that were only partially sunk in mud, like only up to the frame, and those required Herculean effort with multiple heavy lift rigs and lots of digging even when the recovery rigs were on solid ground. I imagine this terrain makes it ten times harder to get the amount of rigs needed out there. And they need to do it before the mud hardens otherwise it's impossible.
Yeah, hardest part is you can’t be near them - we have daisy chained three 4WD’s just to get one out …
(and that’s just an F150) …
 
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Prayers and best wishes for the poor souls and their families.

You ever seen one up close? The M88 is a monster. Old school like a big ole' hammer. Really impressive 1,000 HP V12 shakes the ground as it easily tows/drags a M1 along.

Army stuff is dangerous. I would guess they were doing exercises... Mistakes, complacency and mechanical failures aside. Risk assessments, restrictions and such are probably steep, but there is pressure to accomplish the mission. Soldiers will frequently push the limits and break the rules, it is their nature.
 
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Worked in Lithuania in 2017. The much of the "off grid: terrain was similar to the terrain one might find in Northern Wisconsin. I am not sure a terrain map exclusively would have prevented this accident. Low water features are often dynamic in nature, ever evolving. Sometimes minor excavation miles away can change water features resulting in new/ undiscovered risks.

Of note, Wisconsin is a leading cranberry producer, about 60 percent of all U.S. production. Cranberries are typically grown in marshes and bogs.
View attachment 270661

True. The crew could have been slightly improvising their route if they were in the middle of an exercise and since there's no map legend for mud, they could have easily mistaken it for normal ground.
 
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The spring thaw is called "mud season" there. It is very difficult to use any vehicle off roads until the ground dries out or freezes hard again.
 
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