I could see how the 4-ball wear test could acurately represent the friction between a rocker arm and valve tip as well as a cam lobe against a bucket shim such as many import engines use. Granted they are not exactly the same but very similar.
Four-Ball wear test: Amsoil versus Red Line
- Thread starter Built_Well
- Start date
- Status
Good catch. Thank you Bob. Completely missed that. It's early. I wonder why they changed the rpm?
For the racing oils, they use 1,800 rpm. Same with SSO. ASL/ASM/ATM all use 1,200 rpm.
*This is not a hack on Amsoil. I like Amsoil. Just sayin...
Agree Mokanic.
For the racing oils, they use 1,800 rpm. Same with SSO. ASL/ASM/ATM all use 1,200 rpm.
*This is not a hack on Amsoil. I like Amsoil. Just sayin...
Agree Mokanic.
The 1200 rpm vs 1800 rpm was brought up early on. There had to be some reason for them not testing both their oils under the same conditions. ASM IIRC was tested at 1200 rpm, SSO at 1800 rpm. Tom in NJ stated 1200 rpms was more severe. They tested both oils at different temps too. Would be nice if things were standardized so comparing products would be simple. Seems no oil companies want to make things easy though. LOL
Quote:
Would be nice if things were standardized so comparing products would be simple.
Agree. The whole thing is a bit of a mess IMO.
The temp. they are using for the RD30 is a lot higher than the ATM. I can see that making some sense for a racing oil.
Would be nice if things were standardized so comparing products would be simple.
Agree. The whole thing is a bit of a mess IMO.
The temp. they are using for the RD30 is a lot higher than the ATM. I can see that making some sense for a racing oil.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Well, for whatever it's worth or worth less, I think Bruce was considering his next evolution in 0w-10 oils using a different base stock that...(wait for it) ... produced a smaller wear scar in the 4 ball test.
..but the current one appears to be up to the task ..at least until my cam is ground to paste.
..but the current one appears to be up to the task ..at least until my cam is ground to paste.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, for whatever it's worth or worth less, I think Bruce was considering his next evolution in 0w-10 oils using a different base stock that...(wait for it) ... produced a smaller wear scar in the 4 ball test.
..but the current one appears to be up to the task ..at least until my cam is ground to paste.
Nothing wrong with the 4 ball test as long as he uses the same temps and rpms, as he did before. I don't understand why 2 PCMO produced by Amsoil used 2 different speeds and temps for the 4 ball test. I could see changing things for a diesel oil or a racing oil. In my quest to learn, if there is a reason I'd like to know why? There could be a very simple explaination that would clear the confusion up for me, and others I would guess.
Thanks
Well, for whatever it's worth or worth less, I think Bruce was considering his next evolution in 0w-10 oils using a different base stock that...(wait for it) ... produced a smaller wear scar in the 4 ball test.
..but the current one appears to be up to the task ..at least until my cam is ground to paste.
Nothing wrong with the 4 ball test as long as he uses the same temps and rpms, as he did before. I don't understand why 2 PCMO produced by Amsoil used 2 different speeds and temps for the 4 ball test. I could see changing things for a diesel oil or a racing oil. In my quest to learn, if there is a reason I'd like to know why? There could be a very simple explaination that would clear the confusion up for me, and others I would guess.
It actually does make sense when you look at it closer, which I obviously failed to do. LOL
The 10w30 Racing Oil is tested @ 150C with a load of 60kg. ATM is tested at a lower 75C, and a load of only 40kg.
The conditions for the racing oil are more severe, hence the higher scar. 50% higher load for the RD30.
The 10w30 Racing Oil is tested @ 150C with a load of 60kg. ATM is tested at a lower 75C, and a load of only 40kg.
The conditions for the racing oil are more severe, hence the higher scar. 50% higher load for the RD30.
Then why test ASM and SSO differently? Different speed and temps? Both are PCMO.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: buster
How is the bruce blend working for you Gary? Still running it?
I'm at about 8500 on the sump. I'm itching to test it, but want to make that 10k mark.
Quote:
Nothing wrong with the 4 ball test as long as he uses the same temps and rpms, as he did before.
I don't think Bruce does any 4 ball wear testing. I think (my speculation) various suppliers to his blending company list the test on their base stocks. His company markets no automotive lubes that I'm aware of.
Correction: I don't know if the test was the 4 ball. That was an assumption on my part. He did use the term "had a better wear scar" for a prospective alternative base stock. I speculate that he has a variety of appropriate visc base stocks available and that there are stats and spec's for each on. For all I know it's used for a cutting oil.
How is the bruce blend working for you Gary? Still running it?
I'm at about 8500 on the sump. I'm itching to test it, but want to make that 10k mark.
Quote:
Nothing wrong with the 4 ball test as long as he uses the same temps and rpms, as he did before.
I don't think Bruce does any 4 ball wear testing. I think (my speculation) various suppliers to his blending company list the test on their base stocks. His company markets no automotive lubes that I'm aware of.
Correction: I don't know if the test was the 4 ball. That was an assumption on my part. He did use the term "had a better wear scar" for a prospective alternative base stock. I speculate that he has a variety of appropriate visc base stocks available and that there are stats and spec's for each on. For all I know it's used for a cutting oil.
I just had to jump in here to get my name on this thread with some of the other varying test, charts, lines (and magnifications therein) Note back on the second page, and maybe other pages how soap is referenced in comparison to the test etc, and also how soap is then dismissed as only a cleaning agent "worthless as lubricant my own words". However soap has been used, maybe was one of the first lubricants for along time. I use soap all the time for lubricant at work when working with plastics, rubber, and even metals.
I have also seen other test on metal protection when bleach surpassed the advertised oils, and one oil even used bleach (or whatever is in bleach) in it's makeup. I still have a lot to learn about oils before I can make anything from these test, however I think the ones marketing these oils (not just amsoil) use the ignorance of the consumer in conjunction with these test, even more so when they magnify properties of a chart which is already questionable because of tolerance !!
I have also seen other test on metal protection when bleach surpassed the advertised oils, and one oil even used bleach (or whatever is in bleach) in it's makeup. I still have a lot to learn about oils before I can make anything from these test, however I think the ones marketing these oils (not just amsoil) use the ignorance of the consumer in conjunction with these test, even more so when they magnify properties of a chart which is already questionable because of tolerance !!
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Then why test ASM and SSO differently? Different speed and temps? Both are PCMO.
That I don't understand, good point demarpaint.
I'd love an answer.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Then why test ASM and SSO differently? Different speed and temps? Both are PCMO.
That I don't understand, good point demarpaint.
I'd love an answer.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
If I or Pablo ever find out, you'll be among the first to know.
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Why doesn't Red Line show a TBN number for its 0w-30 motor oil in the data sheet found on its web site?
And why doesn't Mobil 1 show a Noack volatility number in the data sheet for 5w-30 EP on the Mobil1.com web site?
Amsoil shows both figures: TBN and Noack.
I think I'll try Amsoil next after my current run with R.L.I. Bio-Syn 0w-30 is over. Can't wait to see the BioSyn's UOA.
Redline has an 800 # it is /was 800 624 7958 unlike Amsoil.
Why doesn't Red Line show a TBN number for its 0w-30 motor oil in the data sheet found on its web site?
And why doesn't Mobil 1 show a Noack volatility number in the data sheet for 5w-30 EP on the Mobil1.com web site?
Amsoil shows both figures: TBN and Noack.
I think I'll try Amsoil next after my current run with R.L.I. Bio-Syn 0w-30 is over. Can't wait to see the BioSyn's UOA.
Redline has an 800 # it is /was 800 624 7958 unlike Amsoil.
Thanks Gary, I knew you wouldn't let me down. 
There must be a reason for it, or everything with PCMO testing would be the same across the board.
There must be a reason for it, or everything with PCMO testing would be the same across the board.Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, for whatever it's worth or worth less, I think Bruce was considering his next evolution in 0w-10 oils using a different base stock that...(wait for it) ... produced a smaller wear scar in the 4 ball test.
..but the current one appears to be up to the task ..at least until my cam is ground to paste.
Would it be the base oil or add package? Add pack is most important when it comes to cams.
Well, for whatever it's worth or worth less, I think Bruce was considering his next evolution in 0w-10 oils using a different base stock that...(wait for it) ... produced a smaller wear scar in the 4 ball test.
..but the current one appears to be up to the task ..at least until my cam is ground to paste.
Would it be the base oil or add package? Add pack is most important when it comes to cams.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
I imagine there's some film strength thingie going on there.
With a change in add pack, he wouldn't need to try a whole new base stock.
With a change in add pack, he wouldn't need to try a whole new base stock.
Good Golly, how did we ever manage during the dark ages - 1960 to 197x without 4 balls?
Racing oil of choice, during the Dark Ages, was DA Speed Sport. Ran this for years without problems, in a late model modified Ford with a 427 cross bolt main. Never had an oil related failure. [censored], we did not know what the "all important base stock" was. Did it keep the engine together for the season? That was our standard
Balls? that is what the driver had, not the oil.
How much down in power would the old engine be, if the new engines used the same technology parts as were available in the above era? Parts evolve to give more power, oil evolves to give better lubrication. How much is enough, especially on racing engines?
Yes, I am an old [censored], but probably done more racing miles than most, on this forum.
K-Y jelly is pretty slick stuff. Anyone using it in an engine?
Racing oil of choice, during the Dark Ages, was DA Speed Sport. Ran this for years without problems, in a late model modified Ford with a 427 cross bolt main. Never had an oil related failure. [censored], we did not know what the "all important base stock" was. Did it keep the engine together for the season? That was our standard
Balls? that is what the driver had, not the oil.
How much down in power would the old engine be, if the new engines used the same technology parts as were available in the above era? Parts evolve to give more power, oil evolves to give better lubrication. How much is enough, especially on racing engines?
Yes, I am an old [censored], but probably done more racing miles than most, on this forum.
K-Y jelly is pretty slick stuff. Anyone using it in an engine?
Originally Posted By: peterdes
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Even if shampoo and bleach did do well, how in the heck could that possibly matter?
You folks are saying Amsoil's marketing is deceptive because their claims are irrelevant. Well, that bleach/shampoo rumor is also irrelevant -- and on top of that, it might not even be true in the first place. Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to keep spreading it?
Because if bleach/shampoo do well on the Same test Amsoil boasts about, then what does that say about the oil? It is a test for gear oil.
I like Amsoil the product. But hate their marketing.
Just say it - I hate liars and deceptive practices .
I do
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Even if shampoo and bleach did do well, how in the heck could that possibly matter?
You folks are saying Amsoil's marketing is deceptive because their claims are irrelevant. Well, that bleach/shampoo rumor is also irrelevant -- and on top of that, it might not even be true in the first place. Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to keep spreading it?
Because if bleach/shampoo do well on the Same test Amsoil boasts about, then what does that say about the oil? It is a test for gear oil.
I like Amsoil the product. But hate their marketing.
Just say it - I hate liars and deceptive practices .
I do
- Status
Similar threads
