Formula 1

Paranoil · Apr 22, 2005

Not sure if this should be in the Racing section, so mods, please move if you think this is in the wrong place.

Anyway, I've just been watching the qualifying session on TV for tomorrow's San Marino GP at Imola and one of the race reporters was in the Ferrari garage. Michael Schumacher's car had just come back in from qualifying 3rd and said that Ferrari were then about to drain out the engine oil and replace with a thicker grade for tomorrow’s race.

So, it seems even in F1 selecting oil viscosity is a balancing act between achieving max power (thin oil) and durability/low wear (thick oil).

Pablo · Apr 22, 2005

Great name = Paranoil

I'm not sure if it was on your telly but 2-3 years ago they did a bit spot on F1 fuel and oil. The coolest part was the Shell mobile laboratory (huge full USA size OTW lorry for Ferrari) - it follows the circuit. Interesting but they never mentioned viscosity changing for qualifying - although they did say something about tuning oil for max output.

mechtech · Apr 23, 2005

Their light qualifying oil is REALLY light.
Nascar qualifiers often use a 5 weight, then switch to 0-30 or so for the race.

Idrinkmotoroil · Apr 23, 2005

that is more impressive given the strict engine regulations this year, since they are willing to gamble with thin oil viscosities and still have the egine last 2 races.

Doug Hillary · Apr 23, 2005

Hi,
yes Pablo, the Shell mobile Lab. is a great testimony to the importance of correct lubricants

Shell tailor the oil to suit the circuit, ambient and the current durability requirement. The oil is analysed after each session. In particular they look to number of gearshifts, time spent near Max. revs and engine load - it was covered in some depth here during last years Melbourne F1 GP

The V8SuperCar teams here do almost the same thing. The oils used are not even known to the team's mechanics and engine rebuilders - they are delivered by the oil suppliers with/for a specific purpose

Regards
Doug

buster · Apr 23, 2005

It's amazing how closely the oil makers work with the high end race teams. I read an article in Race Car Engineering magazine about how Shell formulates for race teams. The Rusty Wallace article was interesting too. You be sure that what is used in these cars is very custom. 0w-5 qualifying oils and 0w-20 oils throughout the race entirely. Castrol does the same thing. Kind of like having your own professional Terry Dyson every time you go to work.

Terry · Apr 23, 2005

Doug, you mean that oil analysis could be used to accurately fine tune a racing lube/engine/trans/gearbox,ACCURATELY ! in hours or minutes ??

Gosh I want someone to prove to me that this kind of analysis really works........

1911 · Apr 23, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
Doug, you mean that oil analysis could be used to accurately fine tune a racing lube/engine/trans/gearbox,ACCURATELY ! in hours or minutes ??

Gosh I want someone to prove to me that this kind of analysis really works........

Greetings Terry and others,

Do you guys believe these high dollar teams are using more sophisticated techniques than we get with standard used oil analysis to address wear metals? Do you think they are doing particle counting and analyzing material trapped in the oil filters?

Thanks,
1911

Idrinkmotoroil · Apr 23, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 1911:

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
Doug, you mean that oil analysis could be used to accurately fine tune a racing lube/engine/trans/gearbox,ACCURATELY ! in hours or minutes ??

Gosh I want someone to prove to me that this kind of analysis really works........

Click to expand...

Greetings Terry and others,

Do you guys believe these high dollar teams are using more sophisticated techniques than we get with standard used oil analysis to address wear metals? Do you think they are doing particle counting and analyzing material trapped in the oil filters?

Thanks,
1911

I believe that when you get up that high in the racing/manufacturing world that they do use particle counts and material analysis of the actual parts. I believe this is one reason why so many racers use Redline oil, yet sometimes it doesn't prove to be all that worthwhile on a daily driver street motor. The guys who spend the time to measure all wear likely know what really works and what doesn't work, too bad they never tell us

Doug Hillary · Apr 24, 2005

Hi,
Terry - you said;
"Doug, you mean that oil analysis could be used to accurately fine tune a racing lube/engine/trans/gearbox,ACCURATELY ! in hours or minutes ??

Gosh I want someone to prove to me that this kind of analysis really works........"

Well Terry,I watched the programme (Melbourne F1 GP 2004) and that is what the shell Chemist stated in his walk around interview with the OZ Journalist. He actually went much further but sadly I did not press the record button!

The selection of lubricants was made based on the factors I mentioned above. I believe that he also said that they carried out a degree of on-site blending. Their Lab was very well equipped and I suspect they may have trace components that they use too. Going by some of his comments
correct viscosity selection was a large factor

Today whilst leading into the San Marino F1 GP an interview by an OZ Journalist with Honda also touched on their travelling technology - 27tonnes of it!

Regards
Doug

buster · Apr 24, 2005

quote:

The oil monitoring side is slightly different. Samples are taken from the cars throughout the weekend, even though there are very few FIA restrictions on lubricants. While the fuel is broadly similar to pump fuel you buy for your road car, the lubricants are much more bespoke. 'We look at the level of metal found in the oil when taken from the gearbox or engine for example,' says Copson. 'That is compared to the levels found at other points in the weekend and even to those from past years at a certain
track and Shell uses this data to give Ferrari a picture of the condition of its engine, in much the same way as a doctor can get information from a blood test.' Scuderia Ferrari’s engines reliability is excellent with only two race engine failures in the past four years, which is exceptional in this sport. Part of that reliability is down to the excellent partnership with Shell.

http://www.thescuderia.net/shellpower2004.shtml

http://www.f1technical.net/article759.html

quote:

Analysis of used lubricants
As before mentioned, oil engineers are at every race event with a mobile laboratory where they analyze the used lubricants. The information is recorded by a series of photomultipliers, then displayed by category on screen. The result allows the engine’s health to be assessed. Too much iron? It’s likely to be a combustion problem. Too much chrome indicates abnormal wear of the piston rings. Excessive copper or tin indicates the big end bearings may be in poor condition.

In order to become great precision of engine diagnostics, manufacturers use spark spectrometry. These analyses allow the engine engineers to take preventative measures. If it’s clear that an engine won’t last, the team can then decide upon its replacement before it even breaks down. All data collected of the analyzed samples are then stored from which graphs can be generated. This way, lubricant engineers and the team have a precise view of the health of an engine.

[ April 24, 2005, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

tenderloin · Apr 24, 2005

Nascar no longer allows special qualifying engines.. so if they use a thinner oil for qualifying, they have to be sure it will not damage their engines.

pscholte · Apr 24, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:

that is what the shell Chemist stated in his walk around interview with the OZ Journalist.
Regards
Doug

Be sure and watch the Deutsche Grand Prix...if the local journalists do a walk around with the Castrol chemists for Williams-BMW, you might notice that they are incredibly short...

I have asked them to make sure I stay off-camera.

Doug Hillary · Apr 24, 2005

Hi,
pscholte - I'm pleased you received your invitation

I have asked to stay off camera too
The Castrol/BMW "Wecome" dinner will be great - see you there!

Regards

Doug (Honorary Elf)

ex_MGB · Apr 24, 2005

You guys will have to someday publish the "Elfen Saga". I'd like to know about the split will took the one branch to the North Pole. Is there any truth that in the past there was some inter-marriage with gnomes?

pscholte · Apr 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi,
pscholte - I'm pleased you received your invitation

I have asked to stay off camera too
The Castrol/BMW "Wecome" dinner will be great - see you there!

Regards

Doug (Honorary Elf)

This will be fun...will you be having Rahmschnitzel with us before the race? I can set something up...one of the kleine herren is also an excellent chef as well as an expert Elixer blender...you know he is a meister because his oil is oily and his schnitzel isn't.

pscholte · Apr 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by ex_MGB:

You guys will have to someday publish the "Elfen Saga". I'd like to know about the split will took the one branch to the North Pole. Is there any truth that in the past there was some inter-marriage with gnomes?

ex_MGB,

When I get home tonight I will try to straighten this out for you.

Doug Hillary · Apr 25, 2005

pscholte -

the little blender/chef will do wonders with the schnitzel I'm sure. Can we ask him to prepare a Del 1 sauce - not too viscous mind you!

Now what will you be wearing? - I have my Lederhosen (treated with 303) and I have a Green Elfen hat. Sound good?

Should we invite Terry too? he could spend time in the mobile Lab and help with formulations perhaps

Regards
Doug

[ April 25, 2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

pscholte · Apr 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
pscholte -

the little blender/chef will do wonders with the schnitzel I'm sure. Can we ask him to prepare a Del 1 sauce - not too viscous mind you!

Now what will you be wearing? - I have my Lederhosen (treated with 303) and I have a Green Elfen hat. Sound good?

Should we invite Terry too? he could spend time in the mobile Lab and help with formulations perhaps

Regards
Doug

I think inviting Terry is a smashing idea. He'll probably go nuts when he sees the lab. The Elves understand I can't do the leiderhosen and Elfen hat thing...look for me in a Williams-BMW T-shirt with shorts and running shoes...I know...pretty pedestrian. Will you rent the Carerra GT or shall I?

pscholte · Apr 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by pscholte:

quote:

Originally posted by ex_MGB:

You guys will have to someday publish the "Elfen Saga". I'd like to know about the split will took the one branch to the North Pole. Is there any truth that in the past there was some inter-marriage with gnomes?

Click to expand...

ex_MGB,

When I get home tonight I will try to straighten this out for you.

ex_MGB,

So as not to hijack the thread any more than we already have, I'll keep this short. When St Nicholas was looking for helpers he decided some personality alignment was necessary because he knew that living at the icy NP and making toys 24/6 (he gives them Sunday off...he is a Saint, after all) is not for everyone. To keep..ahem...overhead...down, he decided to find some persons of small stature who were renowned as superb craftsmen. So he ventured from Northern Europe down into the Black Forest where he had heard there were craftsmen of small stature but enormous skill. He met my little friends (please recall from Lord of the Rings that Elves do not die of natural causes so they have been around a L_O_N_G time.) He was very impressed with the wine, beer and cuckoo clocks (there were almost no manufacturing defects and the ones that existed only occurred when one of the guys were distracted [more about that later]). However, he knew that he still had to align personalities so he started watching for shall we say "characteristics." He was not disappointed. Pretty soon he noticed there were some "characters," who did things like deliberately make cuckoo clocks that said "ookcuc" instead of "cuckoo" or who put ingredients in the wine and beer that made people very...u-m-m-m...shall we say "regular." In addition, he noticed this same group loved holidays. In short, he gathered up these free spirits and invited them North, which they thought was a great lark and off they went to have Christmas 365 days a year and to make "fun things" (Spielzeuge). He took both damen und herren and of course that produced kinder and a perpetual workforce with the right heredity. And that is how it happened...REALLY. OOPs, I almost forgot...there is NO truth to the Gnome thing...the Elves are actually uncomfortable around Gnomes because they believe there is a dark side to those guys and they mistrust any group whose name has a first letter that is not pronounced...that is just the way it is.

[ April 25, 2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

Formula 1

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