What would a permit accomplish then? Anybody could claim they were not part of the gathering and without witnessing someone being part of the event, how can they be charged with an infraction?
Forest Service dealing with large unauthorized gathering in Plumas National Forest
- Thread starter y_p_w
- Start date
I've paid to camp on public lands in designated campgrounds. I don't consider that an intrusion of my rights.
There actually isn't a requirement for a permit for most dispersed camping, which this technically is. They do recommend using "previously impacted" sites to camp. But the other stuff they've done includes setting up latrine pits and routing water sources.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd968444.pdf
But this is another level, where they absolutely require a permit for groups over 75. They're probably also looking for someone to help pay for the cost of the law enforcement presence.
That's why they had the stay away order.
But I heard this new site might be better because it was a former fire camp that's been well used. When I went backpacking, I was encouraged to reuse an existing site that had campers rather than put my tent on vegetation.
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
Don't understand the pushback other than because government bad. The rainbow gatherings absolutely trash public land year after year with no accountability.
Because we don’t need more laws passed that negatively impact all law abiding citizens every time some minor group does something bad.
It is known they are planning the event, just don’t let it happen, simple.
Besides, if the argument is that we lack law enforcement, then even if we have a 100 laws regulating these types of events, who’s going to enforce them?
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
What new law is being passed? A temporary close order was issued. 100% the right thing to do with these people.
For this sort of thing, they have to bring them in. Normally these places have low visitation and only a few dedicated law enforcement. However, I've heard where they might have local law enforcement and federal officers patrolling the same federal lands depending on jurisdictional cooperation. I'm not sure how happy local law enforcement would be regarding kicking out people for not having a federal permit. However, the locals generally aren't happy about this event in the first place because it's impacting their traffic and creating other nuisances.
For an event then they bring officers from outside the area. I think this photo is from this year's event:
You can look at a permitted event like Burning Man. Pershing County has a population of less than 7000 and I'm thinking they don't have that many sheriff's deputies. I understand there's a mass law enforcement effort including federal, state, and local. I've been to some events where the city didn't have enough police. Many will hire "dual badge" for a day's pay or perhaps bring in outside police wearing their normal uniforms. At one event I remember seeing probation officer vests, where I'm thinking it was just an off duty paycheck.
I'm all for freedom and liberty, but it can take 20-30 or more years for the impact of that many people tromping over a concentrated area like that to fade. I see it as the same as rules against cutting trees and digging up stuff in a wilderness area. It needs to be managed in a case by case basis.
Of course. There is no new law. They cited law and regulations that gives the Forest Service the power to control the intensity of use of national forests, as well as the authority to close off or restrict the use in any area. This would include something like issuing fire restrictions. Obviously closing off an area is a blunt tool, but it may be all they have at their disposal.
§551. Protection of national forests; rules and regulations
The Secretary of Agriculture shall make provisions for the protection against destruction by fire and depredations upon the public forests and national forests which may have been set aside or which may be hereafter set aside under the provisions of section 471 of this title, and which may be continued; and he may make such rules and regulations and establish such service as will insure the objects of such reservations, namely, to regulate their occupancy and use and to preserve the forests thereon from destruction; and any violation of the provisions of this section, sections 473 to 478 and 479 to 482 of this title or such rules and regulations shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both. Any person charged with the violation of such rules and regulations may be tried and sentenced by any United States magistrate judge specially designated for that purpose by the court by which he was appointed, in the same manner and subject to the same conditions as provided for in section 3401(b) to (e) of title 18.
§ 261.50 Orders.
(a) The Chief, each Regional Forester, each Experiment Station Director, the Administrator of the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit and each Forest Supervisor may issue orders which close or restrict the use of described areas within the area over which he has jurisdiction. An order may close an area to entry or may restrict the use of an area by applying any or all of the prohibitions authorized in this subpart or any portion thereof.
(b) The Chief, each Regional Forester, each Experiment Station Director, the Administrator of the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit and each Forest Supervisor may issue orders which close or restrict the use of any National Forest System road or trail within the area over which he has jurisdiction.
Last edited:
Dispersed camping is generally allowed, but there can be limits imposed. I know in some areas the Forest Service either doesn't allow it or only allows it in limited areas. The Forest Service doesn't allow it anywhere in the Lake Tahoe area since it would probably be way too popular.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/ltbmu/recreation/camping-cabins/?recid=11753&actid=34
Please note: there is no "Dispersed Camping" in the Lake Tahoe Basin.
When it's just a few people, it's not all that bad. Preferably find a site that's already been used, but it also means spreading the use around so it's not concentrated in one area. It is legal to bury human waste in the backcountry, but small catholes here and there are way different than pit latrines. Filling a water jug in a creek is way different than routing that creek for cleaning stations. A family of 4 doing this is way different than a "Rainbow Family" of 10,000.
MolaKule
Staff member
Apparently this Hippie group is not very hygenic:
"An outbreak of shigellosis (bloody diarrhoea) occurred at the 1987 gathering in Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest in Graham County, North Carolina, in the remote southwestern NC Great Smoky Mountains. Hundreds of participants were sickened, overwhelming area hospitals and EMS agencies. Graham County had no hospital. As Graham County's small EMS and five ambulances were overwhelmed, dozens of ambulances from as far away as Jackson County and the Eastern Band Cherokee reserve were dispatched. The outbreak was attributed to poor hygiene. The county sheriff requested outside law enforcement assistance. NC Governor Jim Martin ordered deployment of 50 NC state troopers, 25 state game wardens, and additional SBI agents. Dozens of deputies and police officers from surrounding jurisdictions, and over 75 US Forest Service law enforcement officers and agents responded from as far away as Alabama. State and federal criminal charges included hundreds of traffic and alcohol citations, with impoundment of dozens of vehicles. Hundreds of criminal charges included disorderly conduct, indecent exposure, DWI, alcohol violations, revoked licenses, stolen tags, stolen vehicles, drug charges, child neglect, weapons violations, assault, interfering with peace officers and at least one kidnapping. A prison department bus was called to handle the volume of arrestees. County jails in all of the southwestern NC counties were filled on July 4 weekend. Federal, state and local officers eventually charged a remaining group that refused to leave with trespassing on federal land, to bring the event to a close...: Wiki
"An outbreak of shigellosis (bloody diarrhoea) occurred at the 1987 gathering in Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest in Graham County, North Carolina, in the remote southwestern NC Great Smoky Mountains. Hundreds of participants were sickened, overwhelming area hospitals and EMS agencies. Graham County had no hospital. As Graham County's small EMS and five ambulances were overwhelmed, dozens of ambulances from as far away as Jackson County and the Eastern Band Cherokee reserve were dispatched. The outbreak was attributed to poor hygiene. The county sheriff requested outside law enforcement assistance. NC Governor Jim Martin ordered deployment of 50 NC state troopers, 25 state game wardens, and additional SBI agents. Dozens of deputies and police officers from surrounding jurisdictions, and over 75 US Forest Service law enforcement officers and agents responded from as far away as Alabama. State and federal criminal charges included hundreds of traffic and alcohol citations, with impoundment of dozens of vehicles. Hundreds of criminal charges included disorderly conduct, indecent exposure, DWI, alcohol violations, revoked licenses, stolen tags, stolen vehicles, drug charges, child neglect, weapons violations, assault, interfering with peace officers and at least one kidnapping. A prison department bus was called to handle the volume of arrestees. County jails in all of the southwestern NC counties were filled on July 4 weekend. Federal, state and local officers eventually charged a remaining group that refused to leave with trespassing on federal land, to bring the event to a close...: Wiki
Sounds like they give hippies a bad name. 
MolaKule
Staff member
From the Forest Service's website on why a permit is required:
As a steward of the National Forests, the Forest Service has a duty to minimize resource impacts on National Forest System lands. Large group gatherings in the National Forests have significant adverse impacts on Forest resources, public health and safety, and the agency s ability to allocate space in the face of increasing constraints on the use of National Forest System land. A permit system allows the agency to address these problems more expeditiously, more effectively, and more equitably. These adverse impacts include:
As a steward of the National Forests, the Forest Service has a duty to minimize resource impacts on National Forest System lands. Large group gatherings in the National Forests have significant adverse impacts on Forest resources, public health and safety, and the agency s ability to allocate space in the face of increasing constraints on the use of National Forest System land. A permit system allows the agency to address these problems more expeditiously, more effectively, and more equitably. These adverse impacts include:
- The spread of disease;
- Pollution from inadequate site clean-up;
- Soil compaction from inadequate site restoration;
- Damage to archaeological sites; and
- Traffic congestion.
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
I understand that. I thought I'd maybe add some context that there were no new laws - just an existing authority for FS officials to close off an area.
I guess it's more or less over now. It probably had lower numbers than previous gatherings because of the closure and relocation. The amount of news pieces on it seemed to have tapered off and this is the best one I could find.
But looking at all the vehicles, it's a mix of older cars and quite a few fairly recent models. While they may be counterculture to some degree, I'm thinking quite a few of the participants are financially OK. I guess for some it's just an excuse to go on a camping trip.
But looking at all the vehicles, it's a mix of older cars and quite a few fairly recent models. While they may be counterculture to some degree, I'm thinking quite a few of the participants are financially OK. I guess for some it's just an excuse to go on a camping trip.