Oil pans on the 302s,351s,and the 300 straight sixes have the worst oil pans,Rust out 99.9% most of the time.This includes the 3.0s and 3.8s.Replacing one on a GM is a rarity.Watch out where you put the plug wires on a 302,will detinate a piston if you cross one on the driver's side.Ford has a one year interchange on their transmissions.Ford needs to get rid of the studs on their torque converters and go with bolts instead,worst ones to line up.
Ford vs. GM Reliability
- Thread starter The Critic
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
Oil pans on the 302s,351s,and the 300 straight sixes have the worst oil pans,Rust out 99.9% most of the time.This includes the 3.0s and 3.8s.Replacing one on a GM is a rarity.Watch out where you put the plug wires on a 302,will detinate a piston if you cross one on the driver's side.Ford has a one year interchange on their transmissions.Ford needs to get rid of the studs on their torque converters and go with bolts instead,worst ones to line up.
You have no idea what the [censored] you are talking about.
You don't work on cars.
You have no experience.
Your information seems to consist of rumours and Super Trucker knowledge that you heard from your Jasper rep and a friend of a friend's uncle's brother's cousin.
I've probably OWNED more 302's than you've seen in your entire life. My EXPERIENCE with engines covers a range of makes you've probably never heard of and dates that span close to a century.
Stop spouting INACCURATE INFORMATION, it is getting on the nerves of those of us who DO have some level of mechanical experience.
Keep your backyard [censored] to yourself. It has no place on a board that prides itself on factual content. Something your posts are completely void of.
Oil pans on the 302s,351s,and the 300 straight sixes have the worst oil pans,Rust out 99.9% most of the time.This includes the 3.0s and 3.8s.Replacing one on a GM is a rarity.Watch out where you put the plug wires on a 302,will detinate a piston if you cross one on the driver's side.Ford has a one year interchange on their transmissions.Ford needs to get rid of the studs on their torque converters and go with bolts instead,worst ones to line up.
You have no idea what the [censored] you are talking about.
You don't work on cars.
You have no experience.
Your information seems to consist of rumours and Super Trucker knowledge that you heard from your Jasper rep and a friend of a friend's uncle's brother's cousin.
I've probably OWNED more 302's than you've seen in your entire life. My EXPERIENCE with engines covers a range of makes you've probably never heard of and dates that span close to a century.
Stop spouting INACCURATE INFORMATION, it is getting on the nerves of those of us who DO have some level of mechanical experience.
Keep your backyard [censored] to yourself. It has no place on a board that prides itself on factual content. Something your posts are completely void of.
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Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
GM's computer systems are much easier and you can use their ECMs over and over again.
And you know this from working on ECM's and PCM's yourself right?
Ford has one of THE most flexible and tuner-friendly factory PCM's available. EEC-IV was fantastic, with a variety of DIY tuning tools such as the MOATS chip, TWEECER, PMS...etc.
I have a client that tunes for a living. The Mustang tuning market is as big as they come.
But of course you'd have ZERO knowledge of any of that stuff.
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Ford is another story
No it isn't.
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,thier computer system is a pain in the butt to work on
No they aren't. And it is spelled "their".
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and you can use their ECMs once.
That statement makes no sense. NONE.
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Ford uses the cheapest wiring harnesses made in Mexico
You need to go out and tell my Town Car and Mustang that their US-made wiring harnesses are made in Mexico.
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and you never probe their wiring harnesses in the outside coating with a test light.
They make these things called inductive clamps....... So that one is not poking HOLES in the insulation of the wiring, this goes for ANY wire, from ANY manufacturer.
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GM has the more reliable engines which hold up better.
Your opinion only. With ZERO FACTUAL DATA to back it up.
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That is one reason why you see Chevy drivetrains in the older Ford and Mercurys including the street rods.
No it's not, you see them because they were easier to wire, far less expensive to build and readily available.
Any moron can slap a small block Chevy into something.
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Plus Ford's electronic transmissions are horrible to diagnose when there is a problem with them.I know a transmission shop that hates working on them "banging" their heads on the wall.
You know lots of people. Do you actually work on anything yourself, EVER, or is all your "information" 3rd party heresy?
GM's computer systems are much easier and you can use their ECMs over and over again.
And you know this from working on ECM's and PCM's yourself right?
Ford has one of THE most flexible and tuner-friendly factory PCM's available. EEC-IV was fantastic, with a variety of DIY tuning tools such as the MOATS chip, TWEECER, PMS...etc.
I have a client that tunes for a living. The Mustang tuning market is as big as they come.
But of course you'd have ZERO knowledge of any of that stuff.
Quote:
Ford is another story
No it isn't.
Quote:
,thier computer system is a pain in the butt to work on
No they aren't. And it is spelled "their".
Quote:
and you can use their ECMs once.
That statement makes no sense. NONE.
Quote:
Ford uses the cheapest wiring harnesses made in Mexico
You need to go out and tell my Town Car and Mustang that their US-made wiring harnesses are made in Mexico.
Quote:
and you never probe their wiring harnesses in the outside coating with a test light.
They make these things called inductive clamps....... So that one is not poking HOLES in the insulation of the wiring, this goes for ANY wire, from ANY manufacturer.
Quote:
GM has the more reliable engines which hold up better.
Your opinion only. With ZERO FACTUAL DATA to back it up.
Quote:
That is one reason why you see Chevy drivetrains in the older Ford and Mercurys including the street rods.
No it's not, you see them because they were easier to wire, far less expensive to build and readily available.
Any moron can slap a small block Chevy into something.
Quote:
Plus Ford's electronic transmissions are horrible to diagnose when there is a problem with them.I know a transmission shop that hates working on them "banging" their heads on the wall.
You know lots of people. Do you actually work on anything yourself, EVER, or is all your "information" 3rd party heresy?
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I've never tuned a Ford, but the OBD1 stuff for GMs are nice. Gm is nice enough not to make their PCM/ECU hard to crack. IIRC within two months of the z06 being released (c6 z06) they already had LS7-edit up and going.
I tried to find someone to tweak my EEC-IV system in my 91 ranger, but never had a lot of luck. OverKill you have to admit, you can get HPTuners for OBD2 cars for fairly cheap, and you can tune a wide variety of OBD2 GM cars with it.
On the other hand DCX are the ones with the locked down ECUs that barely have aftermarket support for. Well compared to what I can do to even my OBD1 system on my GM
I tried to find someone to tweak my EEC-IV system in my 91 ranger, but never had a lot of luck. OverKill you have to admit, you can get HPTuners for OBD2 cars for fairly cheap, and you can tune a wide variety of OBD2 GM cars with it.
On the other hand DCX are the ones with the locked down ECUs that barely have aftermarket support for. Well compared to what I can do to even my OBD1 system on my GM
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Buffman
I've never tuned a Ford, but the OBD1 stuff for GMs are nice. Gm is nice enough not to make their PCM/ECU hard to crack. IIRC within two months of the z06 being released (c6 z06) they already had LS7-edit up and going.
I tried to find someone to tweak my EEC-IV system in my 91 ranger, but never had a lot of luck. OverKill you have to admit, you can get HPTuners for OBD2 cars for fairly cheap, and you can tune a wide variety of OBD2 GM cars with it.
On the other hand DCX are the ones with the locked down ECUs that barely have aftermarket support for. Well compared to what I can do to even my OBD1 system on my GM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the GM stuff is difficult, I'm saying the Ford stuff isn't either!!!
Did you check to see if the TWEECER would work with your Ranger?
I've never tuned a Ford, but the OBD1 stuff for GMs are nice. Gm is nice enough not to make their PCM/ECU hard to crack. IIRC within two months of the z06 being released (c6 z06) they already had LS7-edit up and going.
I tried to find someone to tweak my EEC-IV system in my 91 ranger, but never had a lot of luck. OverKill you have to admit, you can get HPTuners for OBD2 cars for fairly cheap, and you can tune a wide variety of OBD2 GM cars with it.
On the other hand DCX are the ones with the locked down ECUs that barely have aftermarket support for. Well compared to what I can do to even my OBD1 system on my GM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the GM stuff is difficult, I'm saying the Ford stuff isn't either!!!
Did you check to see if the TWEECER would work with your Ranger?
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
Ford uses the cheapest wiring harnesses made in Mexico
............. but then I'm still a little [censored] about the biodegradable wiring harness in the Contour.
You really get [censored] having to do the harness recalls for next to nothing. I got to dread seeing a Contour/Mystique pull up on the service drive.
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
Ford uses the cheapest wiring harnesses made in Mexico
............. but then I'm still a little [censored] about the biodegradable wiring harness in the Contour.
You really get [censored] having to do the harness recalls for next to nothing. I got to dread seeing a Contour/Mystique pull up on the service drive.
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
If there is a hard way to design things and do things the hard way,FORD!You will cuss a lot when working on a Ford.
quoted for truth.
GM has had a nice continuity of design over the last 25 years. Had an 82 cadillac cimarron and many newer models... ciera, silhouette, saturns, intrigue, cavalier. Body "christmas tree" fasteners are the same they've been, as are my techniques for reuse. The ECM diagnostic tree is similar through all. Most of these cars have computer controlled radiator fan relays... you get used to that sort of thing and comfortable. Same with guys who only work on VW beetles or volvos or...
OTOH, (and IMO) GM thinks their metallurgy through, unlike ford, hyundai, and mazda, and bolts rarely sieze and snap off for me. Even the rankest mechanical noob would be better served by a car that "behaves" in this way. Anything that keeps your blood pressure down makes the experience nicer.
As far as reliability... feh... both makes are probably equal until there's a problem so frustrating nobody wants to work on it for a reasonable price. You'll definitely make it 7 yr/ 100k in either and if reliability, not repairability is important both makes have about the same resale value at that point.
If there is a hard way to design things and do things the hard way,FORD!You will cuss a lot when working on a Ford.
quoted for truth.
GM has had a nice continuity of design over the last 25 years. Had an 82 cadillac cimarron and many newer models... ciera, silhouette, saturns, intrigue, cavalier. Body "christmas tree" fasteners are the same they've been, as are my techniques for reuse. The ECM diagnostic tree is similar through all. Most of these cars have computer controlled radiator fan relays... you get used to that sort of thing and comfortable. Same with guys who only work on VW beetles or volvos or...
OTOH, (and IMO) GM thinks their metallurgy through, unlike ford, hyundai, and mazda, and bolts rarely sieze and snap off for me. Even the rankest mechanical noob would be better served by a car that "behaves" in this way. Anything that keeps your blood pressure down makes the experience nicer.
As far as reliability... feh... both makes are probably equal until there's a problem so frustrating nobody wants to work on it for a reasonable price. You'll definitely make it 7 yr/ 100k in either and if reliability, not repairability is important both makes have about the same resale value at that point.
^^^I had a 1974 Chevy C-10 pickup, and bolted a 6 cyl right up to the same trans (3 speed manual) as the 350 that came in the truck. Even used the same motor mounts. The six had brackets that bolted right up to the V-8 mounts. Very easy swap. Had to run a longer wire to the dist because of the location, though. Ford does little stuff that doesn't make any sense, like putting 5 stud wheels on the old V-8 Mustang and 4 stud wheels on the six. Not knocking Ford, I just found GM easier to work on. There is a lot of parts compatibility between models.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
The latest industry surveys show that Ford's reliability has improved significantly over the last few years. On some levels, it has actually surpassed Toyota's.
With that said, how is GM's reliability compared to Ford? Based on what I've read over the years, especially on this forum, it seems like Ford's reliability is significantly better than GM's.
What has your experience been?
Having owned Ford and GM, Ford is better hands down, IMO. Based on how the company is doing it seems the majority of the public feels the same way. GM dropped the quality ball a long time ago, they're now trying to play catch up, but its too late. JMO
The latest industry surveys show that Ford's reliability has improved significantly over the last few years. On some levels, it has actually surpassed Toyota's.
With that said, how is GM's reliability compared to Ford? Based on what I've read over the years, especially on this forum, it seems like Ford's reliability is significantly better than GM's.
What has your experience been?
Having owned Ford and GM, Ford is better hands down, IMO. Based on how the company is doing it seems the majority of the public feels the same way. GM dropped the quality ball a long time ago, they're now trying to play catch up, but its too late. JMO
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
Oil pans on the 302s,351s,and the 300 straight sixes have the worst oil pans,Rust out 99.9% most of the time.This includes the 3.0s and 3.8s.Replacing one on a GM is a rarity.Watch out where you put the plug wires on a 302,will detinate a piston if you cross one on the driver's side.Ford has a one year interchange on their transmissions.Ford needs to get rid of the studs on their torque converters and go with bolts instead,worst ones to line up.
I saw a lot of oil pan problems on 351 equipped trucks. I can back you up on the 351 pan rust out issue. It was VERY common back when I worked in the auto field in general and I saw it all the time when I worked at the Ford dealer( Parts & Service ). It was not a serious issue for 302's and the 300 straight 6 engines, like it was for the 351's, however that I ever saw.
Never heard about trashing pistons on 302's if you cross wires? That sure seems like a internet myth to me. Never heard of issues with the TC bolts either? Not when I worked in the auto field and not since?
Oil pans on the 302s,351s,and the 300 straight sixes have the worst oil pans,Rust out 99.9% most of the time.This includes the 3.0s and 3.8s.Replacing one on a GM is a rarity.Watch out where you put the plug wires on a 302,will detinate a piston if you cross one on the driver's side.Ford has a one year interchange on their transmissions.Ford needs to get rid of the studs on their torque converters and go with bolts instead,worst ones to line up.
I saw a lot of oil pan problems on 351 equipped trucks. I can back you up on the 351 pan rust out issue. It was VERY common back when I worked in the auto field in general and I saw it all the time when I worked at the Ford dealer( Parts & Service ). It was not a serious issue for 302's and the 300 straight 6 engines, like it was for the 351's, however that I ever saw.
Never heard about trashing pistons on 302's if you cross wires? That sure seems like a internet myth to me. Never heard of issues with the TC bolts either? Not when I worked in the auto field and not since?
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
If there is a hard way to design things and do things the hard way,FORD!You will cuss a lot when working on a Ford.
quoted for truth.
I will add a X2 at least based on the time frame in the late 80's - mid 90's when I worked in the auto field. Ford's could be very hard to work on and at times you just shook your head wondering just what in the heck the engineeer who came up with that was thinking. Things may have changed when looking at today's Ford's although there are some interesting things on my Brother's Super Duty trucks at times.
At the Ford dealer where I worked Parts & Service for a couple years I saw some really crazy stuff. The most ridiculous that I can recall was having to change a heater core on a Taurus/Sable. It literally required pulling the entire dashboard out. The mechanics actually drew straws to see who got stuck doing it. The really sucky thing was it was a very common failure. Poor design from the part to the location.
Any mfg can do stuff like that but it seemed like I saw a lot more with Ford vehicles than others when I was heavily involved with the auto service, parts, body work field.
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
If there is a hard way to design things and do things the hard way,FORD!You will cuss a lot when working on a Ford.
quoted for truth.
I will add a X2 at least based on the time frame in the late 80's - mid 90's when I worked in the auto field. Ford's could be very hard to work on and at times you just shook your head wondering just what in the heck the engineeer who came up with that was thinking. Things may have changed when looking at today's Ford's although there are some interesting things on my Brother's Super Duty trucks at times.
At the Ford dealer where I worked Parts & Service for a couple years I saw some really crazy stuff. The most ridiculous that I can recall was having to change a heater core on a Taurus/Sable. It literally required pulling the entire dashboard out. The mechanics actually drew straws to see who got stuck doing it. The really sucky thing was it was a very common failure. Poor design from the part to the location.
Any mfg can do stuff like that but it seemed like I saw a lot more with Ford vehicles than others when I was heavily involved with the auto service, parts, body work field.
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Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Never heard about trashing pistons on 302's if you cross wires? That sure seems like a internet myth to me.
ALLEGEDLY, that's why they changed the firing order on some late 302 motors to match the 351 firing order. The real reason? Who knows.
Never heard about trashing pistons on 302's if you cross wires? That sure seems like a internet myth to me.
ALLEGEDLY, that's why they changed the firing order on some late 302 motors to match the 351 firing order. The real reason? Who knows.
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Ford does little stuff that doesn't make any sense, like putting 5 stud wheels on the old V-8 Mustang and 4 stud wheels on the six. Not knocking Ford, I just found GM easier to work on. There is a lot of parts compatibility between models.
I heard my alignment guy complaining about jeep cherokees... the front ends are very similar (but different) on the I-6 and V8 models... where nothing crosses over.
Fine... not many of us shop at the junkyard... but you have to wonder why they couldn't contain costs by standardizing things early in design.
Almost reminds me of the 60's when a car from one plant had a one-piece bumper and the same car from somewhere else had a 3 piece. (?)
Ford does little stuff that doesn't make any sense, like putting 5 stud wheels on the old V-8 Mustang and 4 stud wheels on the six. Not knocking Ford, I just found GM easier to work on. There is a lot of parts compatibility between models.
I heard my alignment guy complaining about jeep cherokees... the front ends are very similar (but different) on the I-6 and V8 models... where nothing crosses over.
Fine... not many of us shop at the junkyard... but you have to wonder why they couldn't contain costs by standardizing things early in design.
Almost reminds me of the 60's when a car from one plant had a one-piece bumper and the same car from somewhere else had a 3 piece. (?)
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
If there is a hard way to design things and do things the hard way,FORD!You will cuss a lot when working on a Ford.Plus Ford loves to do 6 month changes.Some of the Ford engines are Mazda engines,the 2.0 4 cyl. and 2.5 V6 engines are Mazda engines.
Wafrederick Please take your medication..You make no sense at all when your off your meds.
If there is a hard way to design things and do things the hard way,FORD!You will cuss a lot when working on a Ford.Plus Ford loves to do 6 month changes.Some of the Ford engines are Mazda engines,the 2.0 4 cyl. and 2.5 V6 engines are Mazda engines.
Wafrederick Please take your medication..You make no sense at all when your off your meds.
At one time we had 10 cars in our family...The Fords were always the lower maintenance of the group.
CROWNVIC4LIFE,stop the slander on me.My father will never own a Ford,always will have to work on it and had bad luck with Fords.He had a 1962 Thunderbird that was a huge POS and he took that to the junkyard which was junked out.He also had a 1963 station wagon that blew up 3 engines.My father likes GMs over Fords and my father does cuss a lot when working on a Ford including myself.My father cannot sell them,no resale at all and he is an used car dealer taking them back to the auction.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Buffman
I've never tuned a Ford, but the OBD1 stuff for GMs are nice. Gm is nice enough not to make their PCM/ECU hard to crack. IIRC within two months of the z06 being released (c6 z06) they already had LS7-edit up and going.
I tried to find someone to tweak my EEC-IV system in my 91 ranger, but never had a lot of luck. OverKill you have to admit, you can get HPTuners for OBD2 cars for fairly cheap, and you can tune a wide variety of OBD2 GM cars with it.
On the other hand DCX are the ones with the locked down ECUs that barely have aftermarket support for. Well compared to what I can do to even my OBD1 system on my GM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the GM stuff is difficult, I'm saying the Ford stuff isn't either!!!
Did you check to see if the TWEECER would work with your Ranger?
Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with you either Over, just posting some of what I've experienced. That's the first I've ever heard of TWEECER. when I was on the ford truck forums, everyone in the ranger forum didn't seem to know much or want to share much of any info. They were all stuck on Mobil 1 is the best and so is Lucas Stabilizer :\
Originally Posted By: Buffman
I've never tuned a Ford, but the OBD1 stuff for GMs are nice. Gm is nice enough not to make their PCM/ECU hard to crack. IIRC within two months of the z06 being released (c6 z06) they already had LS7-edit up and going.
I tried to find someone to tweak my EEC-IV system in my 91 ranger, but never had a lot of luck. OverKill you have to admit, you can get HPTuners for OBD2 cars for fairly cheap, and you can tune a wide variety of OBD2 GM cars with it.
On the other hand DCX are the ones with the locked down ECUs that barely have aftermarket support for. Well compared to what I can do to even my OBD1 system on my GM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the GM stuff is difficult, I'm saying the Ford stuff isn't either!!!
Did you check to see if the TWEECER would work with your Ranger?
Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with you either Over, just posting some of what I've experienced. That's the first I've ever heard of TWEECER. when I was on the ford truck forums, everyone in the ranger forum didn't seem to know much or want to share much of any info. They were all stuck on Mobil 1 is the best and so is Lucas Stabilizer :\
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
CROWNVIC4LIFE,stop the slander on me.My father will never own a Ford,always will have to work on it and had bad luck with Fords.He had a 1962 Thunderbird that was a huge POS and he took that to the junkyard which was junked out.He also had a 1963 station wagon that blew up 3 engines.My father likes GMs over Fords and my father does cuss a lot when working on a Ford including myself.My father cannot sell them,no resale at all and he is an used car dealer taking them back to the auction.
Has this thread already gotten to this?
My father flat out refuses to buy any GM product because of an S-10 he sometimes had to drive at work in the 1980s. I guess that's what I should use to gauge current GM vehicles?
CROWNVIC4LIFE,stop the slander on me.My father will never own a Ford,always will have to work on it and had bad luck with Fords.He had a 1962 Thunderbird that was a huge POS and he took that to the junkyard which was junked out.He also had a 1963 station wagon that blew up 3 engines.My father likes GMs over Fords and my father does cuss a lot when working on a Ford including myself.My father cannot sell them,no resale at all and he is an used car dealer taking them back to the auction.
Has this thread already gotten to this?
My father flat out refuses to buy any GM product because of an S-10 he sometimes had to drive at work in the 1980s. I guess that's what I should use to gauge current GM vehicles?
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
CROWNVIC4LIFE,stop the slander on me.My father will never own a Ford,always will have to work on it and had bad luck with Fords.He had a 1962 Thunderbird that was a huge POS and he took that to the junkyard which was junked out.He also had a 1963 station wagon that blew up 3 engines.My father likes GMs over Fords and my father does cuss a lot when working on a Ford including myself.My father cannot sell them,no resale at all and he is an used car dealer taking them back to the auction.
Has this thread already gotten to this?
You could actually read that?
What language was it written in?
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
CROWNVIC4LIFE,stop the slander on me.My father will never own a Ford,always will have to work on it and had bad luck with Fords.He had a 1962 Thunderbird that was a huge POS and he took that to the junkyard which was junked out.He also had a 1963 station wagon that blew up 3 engines.My father likes GMs over Fords and my father does cuss a lot when working on a Ford including myself.My father cannot sell them,no resale at all and he is an used car dealer taking them back to the auction.
Has this thread already gotten to this?
You could actually read that?
What language was it written in?
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