Ford loses 3 billion on EV

billt460 said:
You would think if they're losing as much money on every one as they're saying, they would stop making them altogether. Manufacturing a product to lose money has never made much sense in the business world.
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You would think, but manufacturing costs are illusive.

There is something called burden. Very simplified - if I spend $1M on a factory to make a product, and I think it will make 1M products during some period of time I designate, then factory burden is $1 per product. The other two inputs are material and labor.

Lets say my factory burden in the above is $1, and labor is $1 and material is $1. So cost is $3.00. Lets say I can only sell said product for $2.99. I loose 1 cent for every one I make. If I stop selling them and shutter the factory - the burden still exists, so I loose $1.00 per product I don't make, or $1M - however you want to look at it. Sometimes its still better to manufacture at a loss, to cover some of the burden.

Yes, accounting :(
 
cptbarkey said:
Mach-e sales disappoint, Lighting sales disappoint, Tesla sales # stagnant YoY. Once you lose momentum, what will it take to regain it? Lets hear your Nostradamus predictions.
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The whole EV market will quietly fizzle into what it actually is. 1 to 3 percent of the total car and truck market.

They will never become the majority of the market. Certainly not with the current infrastructure we now have to provide electricity to this nation.
 
This is the best selling EV in China. It costs around $4500 and will hit 62 MPH. It has 100 mile range. This is the perfect car for in the city. Everyone could afford one. You could optimize parking for it. The poor could use it to get to work. It makes a lot of sense. I would buy one as a 4th vehicle. Based on the number of $12,000 golf cards riding around my neighourhood maybe others would as well.

Given it makes so much sense - it will never happen here.

There is a Cabriolet version as well.

https://insideevs.com/news/502536/wuling-hongguang-mini-ev-cabrio/


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That's the only way they're going to sell them here to people en masse. Get them cheap enough and some city dwellers will bite.

They are also a good all weather replacement for a golf cart. Which are very popular in most all of the retirement communities in Arizona and Florida, because in those areas they can be driven on the street.
 
billt460 said:
That's the only way they're going to sell them here to people en masse. Get them cheap enough and some city dwellers will bite.

They are also a good all weather replacement for a golf cart. Which are very popular in most all of the retirement communities in Arizona and Florida, because in those areas they can be driven on the street.
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Which is why Chevrolet Trax and Buick Envistas are flying off the lot. The average person isn't buying all these $40k+ vehicles but these $23k vehicles were everywhere overnight where I live. Seems cars in general are just too expensive, but I think you're right, these would sell well in some areas.
 
Torrid said:
Which is why Chevrolet Trax and Buick Envistas are flying off the lot. The average person isn't buying all these $40k+ vehicles but these $23k vehicles were everywhere overnight where I live. Seems cars in general are just too expensive, but I think you're right, these would sell well in some areas.
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Yeah, I have to say the TRAX looks like a steal in the looks department to me. I guess GM can price them this way being the UAW doesn't build them and produces them in South Korea which is a respected automobile country.
This is what I was kind of saying in my last reply to you, for a second car that goes only local. Trax might be a competitor to a Bolt or Model 3 cost wise. Without a $7,500 gift from my fellow taxpayers for the Bolt, the Bolt would not even be in contention and honestly, even now, I am not sure it would be even with the $7,500. I haven't sat in any of them. Chances are even for a second car a larger small SUV might better.
 
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SC Maintenance said:
You would think, but manufacturing costs are illusive.

There is something called burden. Very simplified - if I spend $1M on a factory to make a product, and I think it will make 1M products during some period of time I designate, then factory burden is $1 per product. The other two inputs are material and labor.

Lets say my factory burden in the above is $1, and labor is $1 and material is $1. So cost is $3.00. Lets say I can only sell said product for $2.99. I loose 1 cent for every one I make. If I stop selling them and shutter the factory - the burden still exists, so I loose $1.00 per product I don't make, or $1M - however you want to look at it. Sometimes its still better to manufacture at a loss, to cover some of the burden.

Yes, accounting :(
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Switch the factory over to making the F series.
Ford has a successful F line, they make a fortune selling them, and they are in short supply if powered by gas or diesel, only the EV F trucks don't sell well.
My boss recently ordered 8 new F series trucks, they won't be here for 7 or 8 months.
Ford should stop making anything EV, switch the factory to making the F series, and make another fortune.
 
TimeFlies said:
Switch the factory over to making the F series.
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Maybe. But you don't just switch. You re-configure the line. Or throw the line out and start again. So again, all that burden is up in smoke. Not to mention the time it took.

I am commenting in general manufacturing terms - I have no idea the background on this factory in particular.

If its loosing money then yes, eventually they will simply reconfigure to build something else, or just shutter the place and move on.
 
SC Maintenance said:
This is the best selling EV in China. It costs around $4500 and will hit 62 MPH. It has 100 mile range. This is the perfect car for in the city. Everyone could afford one. You could optimize parking for it. The poor could use it to get to work. It makes a lot of sense. I would buy one as a 4th vehicle. Based on the number of $12,000 golf cards riding around my neighourhood maybe others would as well.

Given it makes so much sense - it will never happen here.

There is a Cabriolet version as well.

https://insideevs.com/news/502536/wuling-hongguang-mini-ev-cabrio/


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It looks to me like a death trap. Maybe for putzing around in a golf community, no way would I drive it around here, even locally. Flame suit on.
 
alarmguy said:
Yeah, I have to say the TRAX looks like a steal in the looks department to me. I guess GM can price them this way being the UAW doesn't build them and produces them in South Korea which is a respected automobile country.
This is what I was kind of saying in my last reply to you, for a second car that goes only local. Trax might be a competitor to a Bolt or Model 3 cost wise. Without a $7,500 gift from my fellow taxpayers for the Bolt, the Bolt would not even be in contention and honestly, even now, I am not sure it would be even with the $7,500. I haven't sat in any of them. Chances are even for a second car a larger small SUV might better.
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What I've seen so far including seeing in person looks like a massive upgrade across the board from the last one which didn't seem to sell near as well as this new one. I haven't driven one, but I'd be surprised if I didn't see it as an improvement. I did drive the previous one and it felt cheap even in top trim and I didn't particularly like the look of it. This new one is downright good looking.
 
demarpaint said:
It looks to me like a death trap. Maybe for putzing around in a golf community, no way would I drive it around here, even locally. Flame suit on.
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They are.... Even the golf communities. Perhaps worse there. What happens in the golf cart legal retirement areas in and around Phoenix, (Sun City, Sun City West, and Sun Lakes), is you end up having a lot of elderly people driving who shouldn't be. (Deteriorating vision, reflexes, reaction times that run into next week, etc.).

Many of these retirees drive big cars, (Cadillacs and such). Then you have the golf cart people, who's driving abilities aren't much better. Perhaps worse. Put them both together, and it's a solid recipe for disaster.

Instead of a fender bender between 2 big cars, the golf carts are most always the losers. And there are always a lot of injuries because of that. When you get right down to it, those things are little more than a go kart wrapped in a bunch of fiberglass, that shatters like a light bulb bouncing off concrete, when it meets a steel bodied vehicle.

About the only way it could be worse, is if you put them on crotch rockets. There is a good reason why, when Del Webb built Sun City West, he put a great big hospital right in the middle of it.
 
billt460 said:
They are.... Even the golf communities. Perhaps worse there. What happens in the golf cart legal retirement areas in and around Phoenix, (Sun City, Sun City West, and Sun Lakes), is you end up having a lot of elderly people driving who shouldn't be. (Deteriorating vision, reflexes, reaction times that run into next week, etc.).

Many of these retirees drive big cars, (Cadillacs and such). Then you have the golf cart people, who's driving abilities aren't much better. Perhaps worse. Put them both together, and it's a solid recipe for disaster.

Instead of a fender bender between 2 big cars, the golf carts are most always the losers. And there are always a lot of injuries because of that. When you get right down to it, those things are little more than a go kart wrapped in a bunch of fiberglass, that shatters like a light bulb bouncing off concrete, when it meets a steel bodied vehicle.

About the only way it could be worse, is if you put them on crotch rockets. There is a good reason why, when Del Webb built Sun City West, he put a great big hospital right in the middle of it.
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Good points. I just think of my trip to Florida early this week, and driving around L.I. A big no thanks for that death trap. You bring up some good points about the golf cart communities, I never gave them that much thought, or drove through one. Bottom line is that little death trap no matter how cheap they could sell them for is a hard no for me.
 
billt460 said:
They were pumped full of "free" government money. There wouldn't be a Tesla on the road today if they weren't. Pay me to lose money. I assure you I won't disappoint you. Vegas is only 2-1/2 hours away.

Sales mean nothing if there is no profit associated with it. Our government paid companies on a "Cost Plus" business model during World War II, in order to support manufacturing during the war.

Adjusted for inflation that war cost the U.S. taxpayer over $4 TRILLION dollars. Ronald Reagan was the first U.S. President who didn't have to pay off WW II debt. Do you think Tesla is ever going to pay it back? Don't hold your breath.
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Musk claims he hates subsidies but Tesla would have gone completely bankrupt without them. GM has already announced that they'll be cash positive on ev's by mid next year.
 
Torrid said:
What I've seen so far including seeing in person looks like a massive upgrade across the board from the last one which didn't seem to sell near as well as this new one. I haven't driven one, but I'd be surprised if I didn't see it as an improvement. I did drive the previous one and it felt cheap even in top trim and I didn't particularly like the look of it. This new one is downright good looking.
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The CR report on it mentions negative comments on ride, comfort and maybe power.
I didn’t pay much attention to it, I do agree at the price it looks great
 
If I were Ford I would be looking to either discontinue the Mach E, or find a way to make in in USA to get the tax credit, and not in a dedicated factory. The existing factory in Mexico where the Mach E is made should be making the equivalent to the Ford Focus (except with a normal automatic transmission) which I would think they could sell all that they could make at least right now.
 
zzyzzx said:
If I were Ford I would be looking to either discontinue the Mach E, or find a way to make in in USA to get the tax credit, and not in a dedicated factory. The existing factory in Mexico where the Mach E is made should be making the equivalent to the Ford Focus (except with a normal automatic transmission) which I would think they could sell all that they could make at least right now.
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If they felt the need to actually make us a small car again that would be a great idea. My wife and I were just talking about Ford yesterday when we saw a lime green Fiesta and brought up the Top Gear "is it green? Yes, very." joke and we both talked about how Ford doesn't have any fun small cars anymore. Their replacements are all small to midsize crossovers and the fun, playful nature seems to have left with it. I thought the last generations of the Fiesta and Focus were pretty good and I knew a guy with a Focus RS. I had considered getting one at some point before I bought the GTI but there were a few concerns I had with the car when it came to dealing with my local Ford dealer which I have not had a good experience with.

I do think it's odd that they didn't try to make the Mach-E in the US, but it might lend more credence to the idea that it was a compliance product more than anything. They seem nice enough, but I always felt it was missing something like it was a bit too compromised.
 
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