FM's & PCMO's in Shared Sumps -- Real Experiences

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Phishin

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So, here is my question:

Has anyone had a problem with their shared-sump bike running PCMO's with a high level of FM's?

I'm looking for real world experiences. Has anyone put non-motorcycle Redline (an oil loaded with FM's) in their Harley or crotch rocket for exmaple, and have the clutch begin to slip or behave poorly?

I was just curious. I have never heard or seen of anyone getting clutch problems in their bikes running non-motorcycle oil. Perhaps it's possible. I don't know.
 
I dont really want to have to run ILSAC PCMO in a car, never mind a engine with high specific output like a bike.
If I think back to the mid 80's and my zuk es 572 or my Kawi gpz750 or my Yamihaha Phasr - back when i was semi "ignorant" about oil, i think we ran 10w40 or 20w50 GTX oil pretty much exclusively. But back then PCMO was highly additised like a mixed fleet HDEO expect for the garbage epdm rubber based VII in the 10w40. The only FM we were concerned about was Radio
smile.gif
Ahh, the good ole 80s'! !
 
I know of someone who runs Pennzoil Conventional 10w40 in his race bikes. Granted, these oils are changes frequently, but nothing negative by using this oil. He is a very respected bike builder too, and has said his tear downs of all the Pennzoil conventional used bikes has turned better wear results than big name stuff including the Amsoil he used to swear by. Also, it is not a stock clutch setup, but one of the bikes has run 7 second quarter miles on a street tire multiple times, so may ease some of the clutch worries.
 
Originally Posted By: sunruh
define "high level of fm's"


What I'm talking about the fear that a lot of people have running non-motorcycle oil in their shared sump bikes.

I guess when I think of a high level FM oil....I'm usually talking about Group V oils that contain anywhere from 500-2000ppm of Moly for example. Some Redline Oils, M1 Racing, Torco, etc. etc.

Isn't the high level of FM's is what has people concerned? Don't these MC oils have lower doses of Moly and other FM's? Or is there something else different about MC vs. PCMO oils?
 
none of my used oil analysis show that much.
135 ppm moly is the tops and it was a car oil castrol gtx 20w50
2nd highest is 95ppm from Royal Purple 20w50
both are not worth their cost
 
So is there any REAL difference between motorcycle oil and PCMO?

What is missing or added when you compare Mobil 1 10w40 4T (motorcycle oil) to regular ol' Mobil 1 10w40? What is difference between any synthetic 20w50 and Mobil 1 20w50 V-Twin?

All I'm trying to figure out is....what is "special" about these MC oils? If there is nothing "special" about Mobil 1 motorcycle oils, are there differences found in other brands (comparing Valvoline PCMO to Valvoline motorcycle oil, or Redline PCMO vs. Redline motorcycle oil, for example)?
 
Originally Posted By: sunruh
well there usually is a picture of some kind of motorcycle on the lable.


sunruh....I love the sarcasm. This was my point for even beginning this thread. I wasn't really asking....I wanted people to start thinking for themselves. "Hey, what is the difference? Why am I paying 50%-200% more for motorcycle oil over PCMO?"

And you got the answer right sunrah, "because there is a picture of a motorcycle on the label."

Save your money. Buy good, stout "regular" oil for your bike, and use the extra money for gas, tires, and more frequent oil changes.

In an air cooled bike, any 5w40, 10w40, 15w40, 5w50, 15w50, or 20w50 will work. Each oil and engine combination will shear the oil based on these two variables: what engine do you have (fuel dilution and oil shear), how hard to you rev your bike (fuel diluation and oil shear), and what oil are you running (how stable against shearing).

Any 5w40 will shear faster than a 15w40. Any 5w50 will shear faster than a 20w50.

All bikes shear oil. Even liquid cooled bikes. Change your oil. And do it often.

I plan for my bike to shear oil INTO grade, instead of out of grade. If my bike likes/wants a 40 weight....I'll run a 50 weight. It will quickly become a 40 weight and likely stay there. If I pour in a 40 weight, I'll change the oil real quick (like in 600 miles) because by then, the oil will be a 30 weight or darn close to it.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Phishin
So is there any REAL difference between motorcycle oil and PCMO?



Looking at VOA's and used oil analysis of Motorcycle specific branded oils vs PCMO's, it seems like the Motorcycle specific oils still have much higher levels of ZDDP.
 
Originally Posted By: 02SE

Looking at VOA's and used oil analysis of Motorcycle specific branded oils vs PCMO's, it seems like the Motorcycle specific oils still have much higher levels of ZDDP.


The difference in ZDDP levels are almost ZILCH when you look at the Non-Motorcycle oils in the heavier grade.

Sure....if you compare ZDDP levels of 0w20 to a MC 20w50, there will be a vast difference. But the difference is usually non-existent when you compare a Non-Motorcycle HDEO, or any 10w40 or 50 weight with an "offical" motorcycle oil. Heavier oils (like HDEO's and 10w40's and any 50 weights) don't have to adhere to the strict low ZDDP SN license guidelines that 20 and 30 weights have to.
 
If you check out the specs for a motorcycle oil with either the JASO MA or JASO MA2 endorsement you'll see that the big difference is going to be in the friction needs of the wet clutch. Both of these two specs have a different level of friction additives by percentage at the lower end but the same amount at the upper end. Also the levels of additives like zinc, phosphorus seem to have been capped at around 1200 ppm, due no doubt to the catalytic converters on the newer bikes. Eventually all motorcycle oils will be of the JASO MA2 spec. The JASO MA spec still allows higher levels of additives like zinc & phosphorus etc.

The wet clutch and compatibility with oil has always been the real issue with using a car oil of similar weight in a motorcycle. The older JASO MA rated oils had more of the wear or barrier additives than the car oils had, but that always didn't mean much as long as you had a certain level.

With the newer bikes and the way all oils are going with less wear additives, my view is to just use an JASO MA or JASO MA2 spec oil in the wet clutch bikes. Some diesel oils also have passed these specs.
 
This was all very general. Cycleman, you care to explain what this means:

Originally Posted By: cycleman
If you check out the specs for a motorcycle oil with either the JASO MA or JASO MA2 endorsement you'll see that the big difference is going to be in the friction needs of the wet clutch. Both of these two specs have a different level of friction additives by percentage at the lower end but the same amount at the upper end.


What are you referring to? You mention different FM's levels at "lower end" and "upper end". Give it to me in plain english if you can.

1.) What FM's are you referring to?
2.) What limits are you referring to?

And in my original post, I basically asked: Has anyone ever had any clutch issues running non-MC oil in their shared sump or wet clutch bikes?

I'd like some specifics if you can give them. When I read your response it reminded me of the answer that Bill Clinton gave when asked about Monica Lewinsky.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: 02SE

Looking at VOA's and used oil analysis of Motorcycle specific branded oils vs PCMO's, it seems like the Motorcycle specific oils still have much higher levels of ZDDP.


The difference in ZDDP levels are almost ZILCH when you look at the Non-Motorcycle oils in the heavier grade.

Sure....if you compare ZDDP levels of 0w20 to a MC 20w50, there will be a vast difference. But the difference is usually non-existent when you compare a Non-Motorcycle HDEO, or any 10w40 or 50 weight with an "offical" motorcycle oil. Heavier oils (like HDEO's and 10w40's and any 50 weights) don't have to adhere to the strict low ZDDP SN license guidelines that 20 and 30 weights have to.


Well, granted, I don't spend a lot of time on this site. But the two oils I was thinking of specifically were Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40 PCMO, and Mobil 1 MX4T 10w40 M/C specific oil.

The values I've seen on this site, were 1600 ppm phos, 1700 ppm zinc in the Mobil 1 10w40 MX4T variant.

867 ppm for phos, 996 ppm for zinc in the Mobil 1 10w40 HM PCMO version.

I've used both in a shared sump high-performance motorcyle. The Mobil 1 MX4T 10w40 lasted for about 2k miles, before the shifting started to degrade.

The Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40 which I had left over from a car oil change and decided to try in the bike, didn't even make it to 1k miles in the bike before the shifting degraded.

I had no problems with clutch slippage, but my clutch is a bit stouter than stock, too.
 
Would the higher levels of FM's (found in M1 MX4T) cause slippage of the clutch discs or do the higher levels prevent it?
 
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