Fleets and Synthetic?

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HI,
TiredTrucker - My idle limit was for all idle time!

The coldest we get operationally is typically overnight hauls when around -15C or so would be the minimum

As well we have situations where a truck may depart say Melbourne at 20C go overnight down thru -15C or so and end the trip in North Queensland at 35C plus. Our road trains (and others) do operate in temps up to and around 50C

Our Nullabor Plain, Adelaide to Darwin and West out of Queensland are VERY hot in season - and typically very cold (desert like) at night

My trucks operated in a gigantic triangle bounded by Brisbane, Adelaide and Melbourne

A lot of my Technical experience has been in Northern Europe bounded by Northern Sweden & Norway

One size fits many - but not all!
 
"Are we to to point yet of realization that there cannot be a one size fits all solution? "

Unfortunately, in a word: "No."
Too many people here want a one-size-fits-all answer about:
What's the "best" oil?
What's the right OCI?
Why synthetic is/is not "better" than the alternative?
Why is/is not group III a "true" synthetic?
ETC.

Some people do not understand that there are multiple roads to the same destination, but those roads all have benefits and costs that must be analyzed. The "best" is sometimes not a "perfect" choice, but rather one that has the most advantages balanced against the least detriments. Beauty is in the eye of the lubricant beholder.

Many people come here and exchange good discussions, participate in debate, and contribute to the general uplifting of the world of lubricant enthusiasts. Others come to ask inane questions, and then don't like the answers when presented because they don't fit into a preconceived notion. Kind of like the world at large ...
 
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I really enjoy the perspectives here. It is good that different experiences and observations are thrown out. I am sure we can take a little something from all of it. I started a rant out of reaction to current economic conditions and several good points of view have come into the discussion. Now I don't feel so bad about the rant! :)
 
I apologize in advance for the format as it was difficult for me to convert from the data Schaeffer's.

The following is one of our last 6 seperate dyno test, with 6 seperate semi's, and 6 seperate operators and companies. Schaeffers lubricants and fuel additives in some were used. The last paragraph is a summation of the six. Now, there will be some hole shooters, as always, but Schaeffers did 6 solid tests proving to all those involved that Schaeffers 700 15-40 (semi-syn), our gear oils, and 239s ( semi-syn) transmission oils do indeed save fuel economy for the end users and reduced temperatures.


C-15 Caterpillar 475 HP (3:55 gear) Taylor/Taylor
Initial on 12/8/2009 (472,815 miles)
Follow up on 12/28/2009 (478,520 miles)
Performed at Whayne Caterpillar in Louisville, KY (Lubricants only used in this test)
All Schaeffer’s products were used;

Supreme 7000 15W40 (Brand C 15W40)

239S 50W in transmission (Brand C 50W SYN)

268 (ISO320) in differentials (Brand C 75W90 SYN)

First Class Service Comparison Sheet (NO FUEL TREAT)
Initial Dyno Run
RPM HP Torq Fuel Fuel(w)
1200 387.8 5001 22.33 158.29
1400 429.9 4833 22.89 162.27
1600 403.7 3935 23.24 164.81
1800 400.5 3435 25.36 179.91
1500/ 262.1 2647 16.67 118.27
250HP
Temperatures at end of Dyno Run
Trans 161 Diff Ave 123.3
Final Dyno Run
RPM HP Torq Fuel Fuel(w)
1200 386 4970 20.47 145.38
1400 425.7 4814 22.80 162.01
1600 405.7 3937 22.96 163.23
1800 398.3 3468 25.05 178.28
1500/ 253 2552 14.99 106.76
250HP
Temperatures at end of Dyno Run
Trans 148.5 Diff Ave 115.5
Reduction (8.4%) (6.7%)
FUEL SAVINGS IS 5.5%

After six (6) successfully completed dyno runs the following average fuel reduction and transmission and differential temperature reductions are;
Average fuel reduction (6) 6.6%
Average fuel reduction(1500/250) (3) 8.1%
Average w/additive and lubricants (5) 6.8%
Average with lubricants only (1) 5.5%
Average Transmission reduction (6) (15.7f) 9.5%
Average differential (6) (12.7f) 9.8%
 
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Hi,
salesrep _ thanks for the info - just a little sad IMO that it is product promoting!

My Son is a CAT qualified and trained Dyno operator - I am aware of their system

Reality is different and these tests simply do not translate to actual performance in the field

Whilst temperature reductions in the driveline are a reality when changing to synthetic gear lubricants (varies via viscosity, mineral/synthetic) a lot depends on application! Temperature reduction has a positive effect on durability

As for fuel economy it is well known that in heavy diesel engines that the switch to a 5W instead of 15W is where the greatest fuel economy gain is made - this translates best in a city/urban operation. Other factors simply overwhelm the parasitic fuel economy gains from expensive synthetic lubricants in OTR use

These things amongst many are critical;

a) aerodynamics
b) tyre pressures
c) mass (weight)
d) vehicle specification
e) weather, road conditions (surface etc)
f) and etc!

The greatest influence of all being the Driver's knowledge operating the right foot!!!!

I can confidently say that with extensive experience in the area, fuel economy gains in a move from mineral to synthetic lubricant (especially engine) are impossible to accurately quantify in real world operational terms!
 
I agree, DH.

The greatest fuel economy gains come for viscosity reduction, not base stock changes. I'm sure synthetics can help, but the change in pumping resistance reduction is what is really key.

That, and keeping your foot out of the throttle.
 
Can't win. Make statements with no data...get hammered. Show study with data...get hammered.
Of course this study promotes Schaeffers, that is who I represent and who did the study.
Doug you are correct on almost all counts and there are several ways to improve fuel economy as you have listed many.
D3 you say it very well.
"Some people do not understand that there are multiple roads to the same destination, but those roads all have benefits and costs that must be analyzed. The "best" is sometimes not a "perfect" choice, but rather one that has the most advantages balanced against the least detriments. Beauty is in the eye of the lubricant beholder."
 
This has been a most interesting thread and even though I tend to agree with what Doug has stated, I will say Salesrep has a right to "promote" and show test data on the Schaeffer's product line, after all "he" is a "site" sponsor as is Schaeffer's.
 
Johnny is right.

No issues with vendors posting up data that supports the cause. Further, I don't recall ever seeing anything that Salesrep posted that seemed incredulous. Sometimes it may not fit a particular application; other times it will. But I consider the source to be legitimate.
 
I feel its all about price. I maintain a fleet of 56 vehicles, half gas and half diesel. We run mobil fleet 15w40 which is not even top tear as rotella or delvac. I picked that oil based on price and looking at msds sheets feeling that this oil was perfectly fine for my oci's. My fleet is in a small town with most of run time spent idleing. With a 5k oci some trucks only get serviced once a year. I'm paying 1.89 a quart for this product which is 55 cents a quart less then the big name stuff. That may not sound like much but with volume buying I will save about a hundred dollars a drum. Syn or blend oil would put me way far behind on my repair costs. As a side note the state dept. of transportation here uses Delvac syn blend and buys it in jugs not bulk. I know this because we get our oil from the same mobil rep.
 
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Sorry, I'm taking this off topic, but I am a syn user with long drain intervals and a lot of idle time.

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary


It has been shown that idling for long periods with electronically injected engines shows very little lubricant deterioration - if any at all!



How can that be explained? Higher injection pressure - faster injection and better spray pattern for improved "atomization", if that is the correct term.

Will electronically controlled injector pumps provide the same feature? I presume not in the same way as common rail or unit injector systems.

I am still searching for a way to idle "cleaner" with a Cummins 4BT with a mechanical pump.
 
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The more I think about this, the less likely I see fleets using synthetic. They still cost about twice as much as dino. The big distributors that sell oil by the drum or bulk don't run specials where they throw in the filter for free with 5 quarts. Their cost benefit ratio may be quite different from an AAP special.

No manager ever got in trouble for doing the the way it always has been.
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Most large fleets I dealt with would use conventional engine oils but would use synthetic transmission and differential lubricants.


That's what we have done. All the testing and going through the data has put us on that plan.

Bill
 
Hi,
Bill - for me the "break even" point for synthetic engine lubricants was at the end of year three or @ 750k kms. This was with OCIs averaged at 90k kms. I retained my trucks for four years (around 1m kms)

There may be other adavantages that are very hard to quantify. In my case a prime one was the deletion of valve train adjustments (programmed for every 200k kms). I believe this was due to two factors;

a) use of a by-pass centrifuge cleaner (sub micron reduction)
b) use of a 5W-40 synthetic lubricant
 
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Originally Posted By: Y_K
Interesting to see that this Police Dept uses common sense in regards to oil weight as well:

http://www.mobil1fleet.com/pdf/MiddletownTestimonial.pdf

from http://www.mobil1fleet.com/

Can somebody get this publication please?

D.K. Wilson, Fleet tests of synthetic lubricants SAE Quarterly Transactions, April 1948, Vol. 2, No. 2, p. 242-250


Those customer testimonials are silly. The fleet manager compares 4k mile dino runs to 10k syn runs. Hmm.. someone should let him know that he can stretch out those dino runs, especially in a cab, and "the cars run better". Hmm.. ok. I think M1 should work on getting a better site together with facts instead of butt dyno 'feel' good stories with silly comparisons. My 2 cents
grin2.gif


I agree that syn in the tranny and diff is the way to go. I've done that for years.
 
There is much to be said for using synthetics throughout the entire vehicle. But, as has been stated, the real world and real situational conditions may not trend that way. Individuals that keep a single or small fleet of trucks for longer periods will be open to such a change, but the larger fleets that have 3 year turnovers and contract deals with OEM's will not change their ways. And why should they? They can use a minimum recommendation for oil per the OEM and then dump the truck back onto the OEM at a contract period of mileage and move on to the next truck. Their biggest problem is keeping drivers from destroying perfectly fine trucks before the trade time. I, as a smaller truck operation owner, do see the benefits of synthetics and use full and blends as I see fit and cost benefit analysis plays out. I do take issue with testing relying only on dyno results. There are just plain too many variables pulling various loads thru various ambient temps, terrains, and such that can skew any results one may see on a dyno. I have only found dyno testing to be a good analysis of engine condition.

The OP dealt with fleets using synthetics. I think we can see that a vast majority of large fleets are not going to "break the mold" and go that route. Take that fact and add to it that, in this economy, the larger trucking operations are gaining ground on market share and either driving out the smaller carriers thru rate competition or buying them up. It is a real cut throat realm in transportation these days. To expect much change in standard lubrication practices is bordering on fantasy land.

Synthetics, for some time, will stay a niche market share. A large fleet can actually save more fuel by converting from dual drive axles to a drive axle and a pusher axle. They can carry more cargo due to reduced weight, the initial cost of purchase is reduced, and there is better fuel mileage out of decreased rolling resistence by not having to turn a whole set of additional gearing in the second axle. Better fuel mileage at reduced cost. That is what it takes to break down the wall at a large fleet maintenance shop. Even then, only a very small percentage of fleets are even considering this kind of change. Mesilla Valley Transport is the only moderate sized carrier that has even moved in this direction, even though it is quite common in European fleets.

Doug, your break even point actually supports my contentions here. A lot of American larger fleets are dumping their trucks back onto the OEM's at or before that interval. Your example of 4 year equipment retention is not standard for U.S. large fleets. A typical turnover here is 2.5 - 3 years. Now, the typical single truck or very small fleet owner will hold onto a truck for several years to near or over 1 million miles. That is the target audience for synthetics. Regarding holding down the idle time, the individual owner will do that automatically to reduce his cost. The larger fleets have more difficulty in that area as "company" driver attitudes usually do not reflect such a concern for fuel mileage. And we all know, the largest increase in fuel mileage is a direct result of operation of the vehicle. No micro managing by those in the office will have near as big of impact. You can "chastise" all the drivers you want, but you still need to fill the seat. And most company drivers only understand floor the accelerator and then stomp on the brakes. All this because most fleets don't implement any meaningful incentive for drivers to do better. And we all know that you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I would be surprised to see a deletion of the overhead done on your fleet as well. It isn't only the valve train that is adjusted, as injectors are also checked and adjusted. This procedure can keep a particular engine operating at peak effeciency. Also doing a pressure test of the charge air cooler would be a recommended practice, at a minimum, annually. Just the CAC leaking can equate to 10% loss in fuel mileage. And, how many actually know what the rolling resistence of their tires are? I do. It is a good portion of my tire purchasing decision. Or what of low restriction straight thru exhaust mufflers? All of which do not increase costs (or only so slightly) and decrease fuel usage. Synthetics may reduce fuel usage, but not at the same cost benefit ratio as the other options I have mentioned, hence, the apathy of larger fleets switching over.
 
Hi,
TiredTrucker - You said this:
"I would be surprised to see a deletion of the overhead done on your fleet as well. It isn't only the valve train that is adjusted, as injectors are also checked and adjusted."

I deleted the procedure after monitoring a number of vehicles at the 200kkms service point. It was done after I was sure it was simply not cost effective to carry it out as the clearances remained within tolerances. We always replaced wear pads as needed of course!

I had people always after my Trucks as they came up for sale. Some now have well over 2m kms without a full overhaul

You are correct about Drivers. I had a very strict screening process (I also operated my own driver supply Company (DES - Driver Employment Services). My top drivers remained for all the years I operated trucks and many others were with me for over 5 years at a stretch - some leaving and coming back. Fair pay and good well maintained vehicles and good loads (exclusively Reefer) play a huge role in Driver retention

For me the real fuel savings (other than from Driver skill and intent) was rolling resistance - always correct tyre pressures one truck/trailer (22 wheels) per Driver. Ensuring the aerodynamics were as good as can be expected via correctly adjusted Cab shields (to trailer height) and other components that play a role in that area. Finally keeping good and accurate fuel economy records per Truck enabled the Driver to share financially in above average performance. Of course there are other aspects too

It is interesting to note that in City PUD use a 40kkms OCI was the maximum due to unacceptable soot levels!
 
Over 2m km without a full overhaul... what about an inframe? I took a Cummins N-14 to 1.4 million miles before trading on Kendall 15w40 dino oil and Baldwin filters. Still used only 1 gallon each 7000-8000 miles and got average of 7 mpg. No inframe, no overhaul, two injectors, 1 accessory drive seal.

I took it one step further on my ISX engines though, Doug. I disabled the emissions on the trucks which enabled an average .7 mpg gain. Soot levels tanked. I know.... unorthodox, but.....

And it only cost me 30 seconds of my time, no parts, no tools, no cost. The next trucks being purchased will be brand new Freightliner glider kits.... brand new truck chassis, body, rear end, pusher axle minus engine and tranny. Will have remanned pre emissions DDEC4 engines and Remanned Eaton tranny. Totally legal and spec'd for better mpg than any new emissions truck could ever attain any day of the week. Cost.... approx $30,000 less than similarly equipped new truck.

What a Country!
 
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