FL820S Cut Open - '08 Lincoln Navigator 5.4

TXCarGeek

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Originally Posted by dnewton3
OP - you didn't mention how many miles in use, but looking at the media it wasn't heavily loaded, so probably not obscene miles. what were the IOLM indications here? Metal end cap fell off ... that's not typical, even for an FL820. The adhesion clearly didn't hold up; wonder why? I continue to be disappointed when I see these examples. Makes me wonder if there cutting open a bunch of virgin ones would give us some indication of what exists prior to use; what is the propensity for failure even before the lube hits the pleats? I've used TGs for several years now; been impressed with the build, the efficiency and the price; overall good compromise with positive results.
The IOLM indicator was down to 3% if I remember correctly. My brother lives in San Antonio and has about a 15-20 minute commute to work. Short trips are infrequent.
 
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TXCarGeek

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I have a new FL820S sitting in my cabinet that I'm willing to cut open if anyone would care to see that. I'm unsure if anyone saw my second post in this thread but the pleats were ripped away in two spots from the base plate that they're adhered to. This is what caused the pleats to completely fold over.
 
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For years many members have shown their cut open used filters....the vast majority (90%?) never show an issue. So it is SOMETHING when you open one and things are torn or ripped apart. That doesn't just happen from cutting one open...at least not in the 90%+ of other cases. I stopped using Ford FL and Puro years ago....after being a long time user. No longer. If I got some for free I might drive 3,000 miles on them....nothing more.
 
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Originally Posted by 69GTX
For years many members have shown their cut open used filters....the vast majority (90%?) never show an issue. So it is SOMETHING when you open one and things are torn or ripped apart. That doesn't just happen from cutting one open...at least not in the 90%+ of other cases.
Exactly ... the chances of making media tear by cutting open a filter is nil, unless someone used a hatchet to open the can, lol. Most here know that the FL820S has shown similar media failure many times.
 
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Originally Posted by atikovi
No. Just don't assume an observed defect seen when cut open also existed beforehand or that it indicates a problem with the filter itself.
As in a quantum defect that does not exist until you look for it. If you never open the filter then it was never torn. Schrödinger's Tear?
 

TXCarGeek

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I've cut open another motorcraft filter...an FL400S that I ran for a year on my '99 Wrangler. The internal construction held up vastly better than the FL820S. The pleating was not folded over and ripped from it's base. I even tried bending the pleats to intentionally tear it and it took more force than those pleats would ever see under normal operation conditions. The media simply felt more stout.
 

TXCarGeek

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I have a new FL820S filter that I don't mind cutting open. There's also another FL820S in my grandmother's Expedition that I will cut open next time I change the oil on that vehicle.
 
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Originally Posted by TXCarGeek
I have a new FL820S filter that I don't mind cutting open. There's also another FL820S in my grandmother's Expedition that I will cut open next time I change the oil on that vehicle.
I would appreciate that. I have an fl820s that I just put on a mustang gt.
 
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Originally Posted by atikovi
Opening and handling an oil soaked filter element could damage it as well. A sheet of TP is fairly strong, but get it wet and it turns soft and easier to tear.
Only if they push pretty hard and bend the pleats sideways ... and the media would have to be pretty brittle and weak to tear, just like it can/does in use when oil flows against the pleats.
 
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by atikovi
Well sure, once you take apart the structure of the housing that holds it together and handle it with your fingers, it's bound to tear. Kinda like saying, toilet paper that gets wet and now tears easily is defective.
Ahhh okay, the illustrated failure was induced by the OP. That of course is the only reasonable argument one can make if you wish to somehow relieve the filter manufacturer of any responsibility. The only problem is that you have to make the same argument for all such observations by every individual. On the other hand, why don't we see similar tears on nearly every cut open filter if it's that easy to do?
I took apart the Mopar I ran on my Jeep back in 2014. Identical construction and the metal end caps fell apart just like OP's. I really don't consider that a failure though assuming nothing was rattling around inside the can before dissection.
 

dnewton3

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For those of us whom cut open filters, I expect we're all generally very careful and diligent when doing so. It's unlikely we'd induce a failure mode by simply cutting open the container and relieving the pressure which exists via the spring to bias the media assembly to the base. We're going to be very gingerly with the filter and examine it first, and only after that, perhaps check things like pleat pliability (which may or may not induce a tear). In this case, I SERIOUSLY doubt just cutting open the filter caused the cap to come off the media. I can see this both ways. The material is there to first and foremost allow for assembly to happen; the cap is "glued" to the media so it will stay together for unit assembly. But it also serves a purpose to eliminate a potential leak pathway during operation; it's supposed to seal the cap to the media so oil does not bypass the media. Some would argue that if the cap were tight to the glue because of the coil/leaf spring, it should not matter of the adhesion were lost because at this point, the spring pressure is giving the bias for dP to hold the assembly snug. We should take a step back and ask about design intent. What is present is likely not intended. Do we believe the product design team said "let's design a filter that will loose cap adhesion; we want it to stay together for assembly but then loosen it's grip during use." Is that what we'd believe? Nope - this is a product failure; that adhesion is supposed to be present at all times. Now, again, it may not matter in the "as used" state; the spring pressure may make the adhesion inconsequential once it's fully assembled and fit for use. It could well be viewed as an assembly aid that is of no value in typical product use. I worked in the automotive industry (Ford manufacturing) for 16 years. I now work in the HVAC manufacturing industry. There are often elements present in a consumer product that may not have value to the end-user, but must be present at some point in the making of the product due to process or shipping issues. I will be polite and not call out names here ... but I do want to address what I believe to be as hypocritical positions from some of you ... Here's a loose end cap, clearly not "normal". But if this were a Fram EG or TG and the fiber end cap were loose, the sky would be falling as some bash the product mercilessly. But not a peep about this loose metal end cap from some members because it's not a Fram. Not unlike folks who decry the use of leaf springs in Frams and other brands, but then are eerily silent when an Amsoil filter is laid open and it reveals a leaf spring. Ah - brand bigotry ...
 

4WD

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Agree … I rotate the filter with low pressure on the wheel. That requires extra rounds … but they release better like that under a bit of tension. Probably have cut multiple versions from a half dozen companies with none of the issues I see on this site because perhaps they are not issues. Stuff like Mobil 1 has too much potting ? AC Delco … the "cheap" end caps ? I have cut a half dozen of my $4/each PF63E filters and mint each time and that horrible black ADBV is holding hydrostatic U tube back every time with thin oil. Then the parroting kicks in after someone reads it enough times that a self fulfilling belief system is born.
 
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Originally Posted by 4WD
Agree … I rotate the filter with low pressure on the wheel. That requires extra rounds … but they release better like that under a bit of tension. Probably have cut multiple versions from a half dozen companies with none of the issues I see on this site because perhaps they are not issues. Stuff like Mobil 1 has too much potting ? AC Delco … the "cheap" end caps ? I have cut a half dozen of my $4/each PF63E filters and mint each time and that horrible black ADBV is holding hydrostatic U tube back every time with thin oil. Then the parroting kicks in after someone reads it enough times that a self fulfilling belief system is born.
+1
 
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I cut the can with a hack saw right where the can crimps the end cap. Have never tore a media and the media doesn't tear easy. There's many cut open filter post and alot of fl820s with torn medias so I doubt its the cutters fault.
 
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Send the pics and links to Ford or Motorcraft, maybe a few times, or a dozen times. It's more positive oriented. If the right person sees it, they will be all over Mann about it. They buy these filters not make them. They get thousands of emails and calls, most of which are probably nonsense.
 
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Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Send the pics and links to Ford or Motorcraft, maybe a few times, or a dozen times. It's more positive oriented. If the right person sees it, they will be all over Mann about it. They buy these filters not make them. They get thousands of emails and calls, most of which are probably nonsense.
Ford probably doesn't care as long as people aren't getting engine failures. So many people forget that most all cars - even up into the early 60's - - had NO OIL FILTER at all! Even in torn oil filters, most of the oil is getting filtered. Only some goes through the hole/tear. That's why the manufacturers won't do anything - - because they *Know* it isn't going to ruin engines when this happens.
 
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Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Send the pics and links to Ford or Motorcraft, maybe a few times, or a dozen times. It's more positive oriented. If the right person sees it, they will be all over Mann about it. They buy these filters not make them. They get thousands of emails and calls, most of which are probably nonsense.
Ford probably doesn't care as long as people aren't getting engine failures. So many people forget that most all cars - even up into the early 60's - - had NO OIL FILTER at all! Even in torn oil filters, most of the oil is getting filtered. Only some goes through the hole/tear. That's why the manufacturers won't do anything - - because they *Know* it isn't going to ruin engines when this happens.
Where's that Motorcraft Tech Talk video talking about torn filters causing cam phaser screens to clog and cause problems? Edit - found it. Watch from the 10 min mark.
 
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