First drive - 2019 Audi E-Tron

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by Alfred_B
There is a new innovation that can be used for longer trips. I think it's called "car rental" or something like that, not sure.


Good luck with that one. Quite simply, there is no guarantee it will work for you when you need it.

I often rent 2 to 3 cars/trucks/SUV's per week. Sometimes, it's hard enough just getting any car at all!

Not to mention getting something that fits your needs. Furthermore, rental car companies have very different ideas of what "full sized" or "large" is. Rent a full size car and you may end up with a 4 cylinder powered Ford Fusion.

Absolutely need something bigger? You may pay 3-4x what a Fusion rents for.

I needed a true full size car recently in Atlanta. My only choice was a Volvo S90. Which was nearly $300 per day. Loved the car, shocked at the price. And even then, it was a bit too small.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

An entry level Model 3 has better range than any other manufacturer's EV, which is surprising given the engineering might of great car manufacturers like Audi, Porsche, BMW and (perhaps) Jaguar.
I am surprised the German teams did not deliver a more competitive product from an EV standpoint.



Batteries are expensive. The E-Tron has an 83Kwh battery, despite claims that it's 95Kwh.

Tesla's model S has an "unlocked" 100Kwh battery. Tesla's smaller model 3 has a 75Kwh battery which may actually be 80.5Kwh. Not too far off the much larger E-Tron's 83Kwh unit.


For a vehicle the size of the E-Tron, a battery capacity of 180Kwh would be necessary to get real world usable range of 300 highway miles at typical speeds. Unfortunately, for 2020, real world battery costs are still very close to $100 per Kwh. When ya do the math, the costs are staggering when compared to the costs of an engine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-electric-cars-battery-costs-versus-tesla-2019-9

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

An entry level Model 3 has better range than any other manufacturer's EV, which is surprising given the engineering might of great car manufacturers like Audi, Porsche, BMW and (perhaps) Jaguar.
I am surprised the German teams did not deliver a more competitive product from an EV standpoint.



Batteries are expensive. The E-Tron has an 83Kwh battery, despite claims that it's 95Kwh.

Tesla's model S has an "unlocked" 100Kwh battery. Tesla's smaller model 3 has a 75Kwh battery which may actually be 80.5Kwh. Not too far off the much larger E-Tron's 83Kwh unit.


For a vehicle the size of the E-Tron, a battery capacity of 180Kwh would be necessary to get real world usable range of 300 highway miles at typical speeds. Unfortunately, for 2020, real world battery costs are still very close to $100 per Kwh. When ya do the math, the costs are staggering.

https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-electric-cars-battery-costs-versus-tesla-2019-9

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk

An entry level Model 3 has better range than any other manufacturer's EV, which is surprising given the engineering might of great car manufacturers like Audi, Porsche, BMW and (perhaps) Jaguar.
I am surprised the German teams did not deliver a more competitive product from an EV standpoint.



Batteries are expensive. The E-Tron has an 83Kwh battery, despite claims that it's 95Kwh.

Tesla's model S has an "unlocked" 100Kwh battery. Tesla's smaller model 3 has a 75Kwh battery which may actually be 80.5Kwh. Not too far off the much larger E-Tron's 83Kwh unit.


For a vehicle the size of the E-Tron, a battery capacity of 180Kwh would be necessary to get real world usable range of 300 highway miles at typical speeds. Unfortunately, for 2020, real world battery costs are still very close to $100 per Kwh. When ya do the math, the costs are staggering.

https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-electric-cars-battery-costs-versus-tesla-2019-9

Cujet, my point is the Taycan has fell short of their own expectations.
I believe the Taycan and E-Tron EV technology is similar; joint developed.
The Taycan was touted to have:
300 mile range
15 minute quick charge
$90K price

None of which is anywhere to be found.
Question for you:
Given the battery similarity, does this mean the Tesla motors are much more efficient?

The Taycan is a flat out amazing car. No doubt.
It just seems, from an EV standpoint, the Tesla is years ahead.

 

[Cujet]

Electric motors hover around 90% efficiency. There may be a little difference between types, but not enough to make much range difference.

Tesla sandbags their batteries. The number of cells and each cell's ultimate capacity in a Tesla Model S is estimated to be over 140Kwh. Put another way, Tesla's batteries are rated much lower than what they really are.

This allows Tesla to "hide" battery degradation and to improve performance with software upgrades.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by dareo

Tesla dominates because of their aerodynamics. Battery tech will advance over time. Tesla shows improvement in build quality year after year. They nailed engineering, software, aero, many things, but they still are a long ways behind seasoned car manufacturers in regards to interiors, paint, ect. I am guessing a year or two after the Model Y comes out they will be much better yet again.

Tesla is far ahead of the competition in EV technology.
An entry level Model 3 has better range than any other manufacturer's EV, which is surprising given the engineering might of great car manufacturers like Audi, Porsche, BMW and (perhaps) Jaguar.
I am surprised the German teams did not deliver a more competitive product from an EV standpoint.
"Over time" - The Model S came out in 2012 and has better range than the latest EVs at any price.
Range has not increased significantly since then.

From a fit and finish standpoint the German cars are simply fantastic.

Tesla continues to make a huge investment in charging infrastructure.
Battery technology will continue to evolve, but probably no major improvements any time soon. Charging infrastructure is key.

Other manufacturers seem to be using EV drivetrain in their ICE cars.
Tesla makes futuristic cars; look at the minimalist dash of the Model 3 as compared to the Taycan.
My GS350 F Sport's dash seems overly complicated in comparison. And Lexus is known for their interiors.
Auto Pilot and over the air updates?

Of course Tesla Taycan and Audi are playing to different buyers.
Tesla just might focus on the $50 to $60K cars (Model 3 and Y, pickups) instead of the $100K cars.
I think the Model S and X are due for an update...

I am sure Overkill will flat out love his beautiful Audi.
Just my 2 cents...

There is nothing to wonder.
Germans focused on diesels, which was very good short to mid term solution regarding CO2 pollution. However, VW messed that up for all of them.
Also, EV do not go very well with German automotive culture. German vehicles are product of German culture, not American, or Japanese etc. and they were focusing on real world performance and practicality more than anything.
So, they will have to catch up, but they will. For them problem will be how to build EV like Golf, or Golf station wagon? Europeans do not drive cars like Americans. Most families have one vehicle only, and that vehicle has to do bunch of stuff, from school runs, groceries to be fun to drive. Tesla? Several my neighbors have it, next to 2-3 vehicles already.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by edyvw

There is nothing to wonder.
Germans focused on diesels, which was very good short to mid term solution regarding CO2 pollution. However, VW messed that up for all of them.
Also, EV do not go very well with German automotive culture. German vehicles are product of German culture, not American, or Japanese etc. and they were focusing on real world performance and practicality more than anything.
So, they will have to catch up, but they will. For them problem will be how to build EV like Golf, or Golf station wagon? Europeans do not drive cars like Americans. Most families have one vehicle only, and that vehicle has to do bunch of stuff, from school runs, groceries to be fun to drive. Tesla? Several my neighbors have it, next to 2-3 vehicles already.

I am not sure the data supports your opinion.
Germany accounts for 15% of Model 3 sales in Europe.
The demand is strong, despite lack of service centers, etc.
Elon Musk has long considered a factory in Germany.

I agree the Taycan/E-Tron EV tech needs to catch up.
What boggles my mind is, why did they deliver a system so far behind in the 1st place?
With their considerable engineering and manufacturing abilities; their sheer expertise and history of building world class cars, why didn't they hit at least 300 mile range?
Their stated goal was to exceed the 300 mile range; they fell far short.

I do agree with your multiple car statement. Everyone I know with a Tesla has at least 1 more car.
My friend Ed has 2 Model S, for example.
I have 5 vehicles at home alone.

 

[4WD]

If you have 5 vehicles - how are they at home alone ?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by 4WD
If you have 5 vehicles - how are they at home alone ?

Sue put me on restriction...

I meant I have other cars as well; just not at our Los Gatos address.
When you visit sunny Silicon Valley, take one out for a spin. Your choice.

I am a product of CA education; you cannot expect me to read and write...
All good.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by edyvw

There is nothing to wonder.
Germans focused on diesels, which was very good short to mid term solution regarding CO2 pollution. However, VW messed that up for all of them.
Also, EV do not go very well with German automotive culture. German vehicles are product of German culture, not American, or Japanese etc. and they were focusing on real world performance and practicality more than anything.
So, they will have to catch up, but they will. For them problem will be how to build EV like Golf, or Golf station wagon? Europeans do not drive cars like Americans. Most families have one vehicle only, and that vehicle has to do bunch of stuff, from school runs, groceries to be fun to drive. Tesla? Several my neighbors have it, next to 2-3 vehicles already.

I am not sure the data supports your opinion.
Germany accounts for 15% of Model 3 sales in Europe.
The demand is strong, despite lack of service centers, etc.
Elon Musk has long considered a factory in Germany.

I agree the Taycan/E-Tron EV tech needs to catch up.
What boggles my mind is, why did they deliver a system so far behind in the 1st place?
With their considerable engineering and manufacturing abilities; their sheer expertise and history of building world class cars, why didn't they hit at least 300 mile range?
Their stated goal was to exceed the 300 mile range; they fell far short.

I do agree with your multiple car statement. Everyone I know with a Tesla has at least 1 more car.
My friend Ed has 2 Model S, for example.
I have 5 vehicles at home alone.

Of course Germany accounts 15%. It is richest and biggest market in Europe, by far. It is market with purchasing power higher than in the US. If it was not strongest for Tesla, it would be really bad.
That does not have to do anything with what I said. You have to take into consideration dramatic shift in culture in Germany since VW Dieselgate. Still, those 15% are nothing but people who are having other vehicles. However, keep in mind that while Germans have to catch up with EV technology, Tesla has to catch up pretty much with everything else.