Filter Warranty...

[Winston]

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It's a safety mechanism for the sake of the media ..not the engine.

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This is what you think. I do not agree. Mfg's can make filters that can handle 30psi (VW). So if the valve was there to protect the media why do some filters have 8-11psi bypass valves?

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I have a filter that fits my 3/4-16 thread that has no bypass valve. What your perceptions be at any point in the use of it as long as two conditions were met? One ..that the relief limit of the pump was never reached... and two ..the PSID progressed without recession during the entire OCI. Would it matter if a bypass valve was there or not??

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If those two conditions are met it would be fine. However, during cold starts those conditions are not always met.

Personally, I believe that the only purpose of the pressure relief valve is to allow adequate flow during cold start-ups. And, yes, in warmer climates they probably never open.

I also believe that oil filters rarely get loaded very much. So, again the purpose of the pressure relief is to allow flow during cold starts.

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Pressure is cumulative through the engine, so if your engine's pressure relief valve is set at 75 PSI, oil pressure to your engine will only get up to 45 psi if you use a VW filter on some other car.

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I believe this would only happen during cold startup. Normally a VW filter probably has the same pressure drop as most other filters. About 5psi.

[ May 13, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Winston ]

 

[Gary Allan]

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So if the valve was there to protect the media why do some filters have 8-11psi bypass valves?

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Weaker media. That's why a Wix may have 8-11 and a PureOne may have 12-18 (whatever) and other may have a different setting. They can and are spec'd for the same engines. That is, Wix, except for "exceptional filters" are all the same. Punch in any number you want. The PureOne line is the same thing ..except higher. Try Baldwin ..just about any of them that are "common" are all "common" to that manufacturer regardless of application.

The VW, and some other Euro based designs, appear to insist on a much more substantial media ..otherwise there would be no sense to a higher bypass valve setting. Or rather, if they didn't have a much more substantial media ..why would American manufacturers only have a 8-1X bypass limit ...so that they could ASSURE that there would be adaquate unfiltered oil going through American engines??

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This is what you think.

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Yes, Winston. This is only an opinion.

 

[Filter guy]

Winston:

I think you've explained why differences in by-pass settings well enough. It is the engine manufacturer that decides at what opening pressure for the by-pass they need to keep enough oil flowing to properly lubicate their engine.
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Lubeowner:
"Of course because of liability reasons I cannot provide warranty on our work if anything other than the exact filter the book calls for is used."

I can agree why you do that. I can also say, for those that think the big bad filter company should honor warranty when you change part numbers and it's not the one for your motor, why wouldn't you say the same for the retailer or lubeshop that provides you with the "wrong" element?
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Also FYI: Champ is the OEM supplier for Volkswagon/Porche/Audi for North America and Mexico.

I think they know what the correct specs are for the Warner line or whatever brand they private label for that are used on VW applications.
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ZR2RANDO

Any filter that is installed on any vehicle , you run the risk of it being mismanufactured. Lubeowner has found a Purolator. Someone else posted a Motocraft. And then there's the one Champ Super Tech E-core where the pleat wasn't sealed properly.

So at anytime the filter you have on you car regardless of price you paid can have a problem. It could have even been the OEM one that came when the car was new. How would you know which one over the life of your car caused the problem?

The question is what is the effect down the road? Does your car have a problem the next month? 6 Months? 6 years?

There is not a correlation if someone uses a filter that has a problem that there is future damage. However, should something happen either catastrophic or enough to grab your attention, as i've stated send the filter and an oil sample in.

Chances are if a filter is mismanufactured it causes a problem straight away that gets someones attention. Can I prove this statement? Not really. But there is something about those who have engine problems and the chances are the filter has had problems as well. Now whether that was a collapsed filter caused by the pressure regulating valve or some true mismanufactured filter...I can't break it down from memory.

Usually if the engine is on it's last legs, the owner knows if he/she has maintained the car well enough. As you probably do with your Vette. You'll know when something is amiss.

To use "bob's" oil analysis when he removed the filter and his oil analysis was "fine" for the 4,000 miles he ran that engine that way ( sans filter), If a filter does have a rip, tear, or pleat not sealed correctly will one filter that way over the life you own the car be the problem some may think it is?

The next filter that you put on captures the dirt particles not caught by the one with the problem that was on for one oil change.

But if that one causes the catastophic failure, then you're covered warranty wise by any filter company. Because if the filter was mismanufactured they don't say well your problem was caused by the one 5 oil changes ago.

 

[Winston]

Gary, when I said "that is what you think" I did not mean to be rude. I am just too blunt sometimes.

Anyway, why do you think the VW filters have different media?

 

[Gary Allan]

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Anyway, why do you think the VW filters have different media?

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Yeah ...or so I have to reason. What I'll do is get one of the Wix 30 psi bypass type and perhaps do a sacrificial offering. That is, let's find out.


No problem with being blunt. It wasn't taken personally .. always keep in mind that this is fun for me. I want it to be for you too and thoroughly enjoy our continued dialog along these lines. Being "spirited"

in your assertions is a good thing

. Many people can appear quite passionate about these matters. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Filter Guy:
A filter does not have to be “mismanufactured” as you state it, to be a bad filter. It can be cheaply made, and simply not up to the job of filtering oil in the real world for a reasonable OCI. Now pay attention…

FG--“How would you know which one over the life of your car caused the problem?”

As I said above, that is why I cut filters open after use…so I can see which one (if any..) fails.

FG--“There is not a correlation if someone uses a filter that has a problem that there is future damage.”
FG--“Chances are if a filter is mismanufactured it causes a problem straight away that gets someones attention.”

As I said above, again, ‘Normally the consequence of using poorly designed/built oil filters is as he stated, just a more accelerated wearing of lubricated surfaces in the motor, burning oil type of thing’

FG--“As you probably do with your Vette.”

You are mistaking me for someone else, as I said above..

’ I cut open every filter that comes off my trucks.’

FG--“To use "bob's" oil analysis when he removed the filter and his oil analysis was "fine" for the 4,000 miles he ran that engine that way ( sans filter), If a filter does have a rip, tear, or pleat not sealed correctly will one filter that way over the life you own the car be the problem some may think it is?”

I keep vehicles forever, my oldest at this moment has 195k miles (1989 Nissan truck), my newest has 87k miles (1999 Chev S10 truck). I don’t want any one filter causing me a problem for the next 10-15 years…If a filter does rip during use, what do you think happens to any filter material that now is in the oil flowing through the engine?????

FG--“The next filter that you put on captures the dirt particles not caught by the one with the problem that was on for one oil change.”

Wrong again Mr supposed filter expert…I change oil and filter together. Any damage done by anything permanently bypassing the torn/defective filter while in service is done forever.

FG--“Because if the filter was mismanufactured they don't say well your problem was caused by the one 5 oil changes ago.”

Of course not, that would be stupid. I would not give them the chance to even try. If I have a filter problem, they will hear about it as soon as I have that filter problem.

FG--“But if that one causes the catastophic failure, then you're covered warranty wise by any filter company”

My entire point above---‘My point is that I don’t want to get myself in that situation in the first place, because I know the odds are against me at that point. If I never cut open the filters I would never see the root cause of the problem.’

You really seem to be looking out for the mfgr more than the customers, I don’t see it that way…I am busy taking care of myself here. Your marketing/sales attitude does nothing for me, somebody must be making it worth your while. Good thing I’m not one of your customers.

 

[Filter guy]

I'm glad your the extreme exception who has forever cut open his own filters. More power to you. Sorry for the Corvette confusion.

A ripped pleat won't cause any damage from media going downstream. Rip/tear a sheet of paper. Did you see any drop to the floor?

When a filter media rips..it opens a hole for unfiltered oil to go downstream. That is the problem.

It is possible for media to disintegrate and go downstream..if water or coolant is present in the oil.

But I suppose you'd be the first to blame the filter if your element turned mushy and some of it was missing.

You keep harping about "cheaply" made filters.
Are these "cheaply" made filters run on different production lines than other filters you might buy? Are the $2 filters run on different lines than the $6 ones?

What else is the construction difference? Different gaskets? Shells? Backplates? Anti-drains? By-pass? Even media?

And do you think those that engineer the filters to "meet or exceed" manufacturers specs have played some con game? If so, why aren't the automotive OEM's sending out bulletins telling their service department to warn customers away from Brand whatever? I would like a specific answer to this question if you don't mind.

So if the Automotive OEM's are not warning their delears of potential shoddy product that can cause damage or failure to the most expensive piece of their vehicle..can you explain "cheap" to me?

You obviously have a burr under your saddle for whatever reason. There are no conditions that the engine and oil can subject the filter to that in your fantasy world a "cheap" correctly manufactured filter should be bullet proof to. No matter what condition the filter sees.it should look pristine.

I would like for you to explain the exposure a major filter company would have should they build a "cheap" product knowing that the filter did not meet specs and had potential to cause damage.

All filter companies would love to build a $2 filter that causes $2-5,000 worth of engine damage, wouldn't they? It doesn't take a salesman to long to know his company is skayrewed. However, smart posters in here can pop off about cheap filters though as though filter companies would build such a critter....

The reason there are good, better, best is consumer demand. One may use the "best" and disparage the "good" filter but that's as far as it should go. Not someone claiming that a filter that meets or exceeds OEM specs is somehow "cheaply" made. Because the filter that costs a buck or two or five more is made with the exact same components including media.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Yep, I figured as much. As usual you blame everything BUT the filter. It’s ok for cheap filters to fail because they are a lower grade than expensive ones..uh huh..again. My response was not to you as much as it was just because it needed to be said.

It is obvious you purchased the straight jacket, rather than just renting it. I’ve said what I need to regarding the “filter warranty” topic. Your advice would actually keep people from finding problems more than it would help them prevent them.

 

[Ken2]

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Also FYI: Champ is the OEM supplier for Volkswagon/Porche/Audi for North America and Mexico.

I think they know what the correct specs are for the Warner line or whatever brand they private label for that are used on VW applications.

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The Mann 930/21 filters I buy look, feel, and weight exactly the same except for the paint as the VW #078115561J (Made in Germany) filter I got at the dealership.
Filter spec link

The Mann 930/21 filter has a 3 bar (45 psi) bypass valve setting. The Mann W917 filters I use on my turbo Volvo have a 1.1 bar bypass valve setting, about 16.5 psi.


Ken

 

[lubeowner]

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What I can see happening, with someone like lubeowner using a lowball filter, with an abreviated application chart (to reduce inventory) and using a standard 8-12 psi bypass valve ..and someone using it for the 10k-15k OCI that typically uses (and OEM spec's) a 30 lb bypass ..and having that kicked back to the consumer who then has to seek damages from the vendor. Sure the vendor can claim ignorance ..but it adds another obstacle to the mix.


Gary,

This is exactly what I was talking about in a few posts I have made recently. Since we switched to Wix (NAPA) I have noticed they are way more application specific, certain numbers are only available in the Gold line. We have had to bring in several new number for complete coverage. I don't understand how Fram and Champ spec. out theri low line filters to cover such a broad range of vehicles. The elements, bypass settings, etc. are totally different between Champ and certain Wix filters for the same application.

 

[Gary Allan]

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Gary,

This is exactly what I was talking about in a few posts I have made recently. Since we switched to Wix (NAPA) I have noticed they are way more application specific, certain numbers are only available in the Gold line. We have had to bring in several new number for complete coverage. I don't understand how Fram and Champ spec. out theri low line filters to cover such a broad range of vehicles. The elements, bypass settings, etc. are totally different between Champ and certain Wix filters for the same application.

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I agree with you (and should have noted your previous reference to it). This is where it may be a matter of "risk managment". Sorta like the old lifetime warranty batteries. They were warranted for the life of the car to the original owner. At that time a car would probably be on it's 2nd or 3rd owner and would probably be sold or junked before the cheap battery failed. They could use marginal material in it ..since the odds say that it would not fail to the point of making it a uneconomical battery to warrant. I don't recall if you gave much detail on the x-ref tables that came with your Warners ..or if it was generic and x-ref'd that referenced the Warner line as well as all others. If the latter, then there's little liability for Warner since the x-ref (which may or may not be a Warner product) recommended this filter for that application.

Is the x-ref you use, or did use, a Warner produced product? If so, then it would be less liability for you. If not, then I would think that the owner of a car that sustained damage due to an improper fitment would probably seek damages from the vendor and not the manufacturer. You would then have to seek compensation for damages from the x-ref publisher that implied that the recommendations were suitable for mechantabilty (check the disclaimers). Amkeer would probably be able to expound upon this for a page or two

In fact, I wonder why he hasn't chimed in on this.

 

[Filter guy]

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Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:
Yep, I figured as much. As usual you blame everything BUT the filter. It’s ok for cheap filters to fail because they are a lower grade than expensive ones..uh huh..again. My response was not to you as much as it was just because it needed to be said.

It is obvious you purchased the straight jacket, rather than just renting it. I’ve said what I need to regarding the “filter warranty” topic. Your advice would actually keep people from finding problems more than it would help them prevent them.

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I am just stating facts. It is up to you to interpret them instead of relying on one avenue towards a failure mode...it's the filters fault.

I still would like an answer to this question I asked above, if you please:

And do you think those that engineer the filters to "meet or exceed" manufacturers specs have played some con game? If so, why aren't the automotive OEM's sending out bulletins telling their service department to warn customers away from Brand whatever? I would like a specific answer to this question if you don't mind.

 

[Filter guy]

Lubeowner:

I've seen various bulletins over the years. Do you have a current one? And btw..we sell Fleetguard product where I work.

Do you remember the one Caterpillar sent out against Fleetguard? or the one Fleetguard sent out against Baldwin? Or the one Mitsubishi sent out against Fram? All of those have since been resolved.

I have seen over the years certain bulletins published by various OEMS. They are then recinded when filter company X changes the spec for the specific filter part number.

Then some "salesmen" and people who sell a different brand mislead others into believing the bulletin is current even after changes have been made to comply.

So lubeowner are you aware of any product currently offered by any filter company that will void warranty of the Cummins Turbo Diesel as the bulletin you refer to is from 1999 and this is 2005?

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ZR2RANDO

So you finally admit that there is not cheaply made product as they do in fact meet or exceed OEM specs.

What you want is the filter companies to conform to your personal imterpretations of what constitutes a good filter and what doesn't.

And you do all this from what engineering background?

No doubt you'll harken back to your own real world experience. Much like lubeowner.

But neither of you and some others who have chimed in:
A; Know what an OEM filter spec is.
B: Have seen or know of what extensive testing goes into the development of filters( Even the cheaply made, by your description, ones).
C; That OEM specs are designed to anticipate real world use.


And your angst is in evidence all because you won't admit that there are real world owners of vehicles that mistreat their oil and engine.

I have said filter companies pay warranties. They do build some filter that aren't absolutely perfect. Stuff happens.

But this thread was started to let people who reads these forums understand the basic process. Not for you and others to chime in that it's all a crock and that there is poor product out there.

As you've now admitted that all brands of US made filters meet specs but don't come up to your personal standards, that's why filter companies give you the choice of product differentiation on the store shelves. It's the consumer choice to buy the filter that meet his/her needs.

But should a filter not "look" good once it is used, it is also time for you and others to admit that the end result of what the filter looks like is because of the use or misuse the filter has seen during it's life on the engine before removal. See C: from above. Unless you want to claim that the OEM does not test their cars ( and engines) for real world use. From cold weather testing to hot/desert weather testing. From mountainous testing. To endurance testing.

And all the time the OEM cares less about the filter and it's specs on the engine and how it protects the most expensive component of the vehicle. Because that's your basic analysis when you see some pics or see first hand real world results. The specs aren't good enough for the real world, according to your assumption.

It's time for a rethink on your parts as to the end resultant cause and effect. But I suppose it's easier to lay blame on a "cheaply" made filter than use your noodle.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

“FG- And do you think those that engineer the filters to "meet or exceed" manufacturers specs have played some con game?

No, not necessarily. Those mfgrs specs can be below my personal minimum expectations. So when these filters “possibly” meet or exceed mfgrs specs that does not necessarily mean sufficient performance for me.”

Where did you get the following ?
“So you finally admit that there is not cheaply made product as they do in fact meet or exceed OEM specs”
“As you've now admitted that all brands of US made filters meet specs but don't come up to your personal standards,”

“And you do all this from what engineering background?”

Chemical Engineering

Again, you twisted the words I wrote to suit you. This could go on forever. You’ll always take what I say and change it. I was just presenting another point of view concerned with preventing problems rather than blindly relying on “cheap” parts and potentially setting yourself up to deal with a possible warranty all because of a $2 part that could have failed who knows how many oil changes back.
I know you will rebut everything I say, have at it, I will not continue on this issue..you get the last word with me.

 

[Filter guy]

ZR2RANDO:

It's not about last word.

It's about reality.

Maybe you have a problem with the "low" OEM specs and the fact that companies can make "cheaply" made filters that will meet those specs.

You take care of your equipment. You choose a decent filter for your needs.

You probably would never have a problem with a $2 filter based on your oil change intervals with the care you give your car(s).

But you also have to admit other humans are not as maintenance oriented as you ( and me, i've always done oil analysis since the 80's) are.

And that's my beef with some pictures posted in here? Instead of generalizations based on just the pics themselves. And as many times as questions have been asked. Why isn't there some specific information associated with the pics to give us all more data to anaylize for ourselves? You would do that in your chemical engineering field. Except for shock value what are we learning from those pics?

You would have information for a filter you have a problem with. Why can't we all know more about those filters pictured? I personally think there are no excuses anymore for not providing information.

Joe or Joeline consumer who comes to a lube shop more than likely went to a lube shop for the previous oil change. The previous shop put a sticker in the upper left corner of the windshield with the 3 month, 3,000 miles recommended next oil change interval. Is it so hard to look at the previous sticker? Appparently it is...

If the owner removed it, chances are they know they've gone to long between oil changes. If not it's there for documentation.

Inquiring minds want to know...

 

[lubeowner]

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And do you think those that engineer the filters to "meet or exceed" manufacturers specs have played some con game? If so, why aren't the automotive OEM's sending out bulletins telling their service department to warn customers away from Brand whatever? I would like a specific answer to this question if you don't mind.

The only reason I am responding to this is for the good of the board:
Actually there have been bulletins sent out by OEM's. Why don't you look at the bulletin that was published by DC regarding oil filters for Cummins Turbo Diesel engines. The bulletin names the only oil filters that are approved for use in this application. It seems certain filters were coming apart, plugging the piston cooling nozzles causing catastrophic failure. Others could not withstand the pressure created by the 24V engine introduced in 1998.5. If you use filters other than the ones recommended NO WARRANTY BY DC. In the event of failure you would have to go to the filter manufacturer. This is why we only carry Fleetguard stratapore for Cummins in my shop. I think Toyota several years back issued a similar bulleting regarding low quality ADBV or bypas valves.

Statements like this by so called experts are why there is mis-information on this board.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

FG- And do you think those that engineer the filters to "meet or exceed" manufacturers specs have played some con game?

No, not necessarily. Those mfgrs specs can be below my personal minimum expectations. So when these filters “possibly” meet or exceed mfgrs specs that does not necessarily mean sufficient performance for me.

FG- If so, why aren't the automotive OEM's sending out bulletins telling their service department to warn customers away from Brand whatever? I would like a specific answer to this question if you don't mind.

It seems that some do, in addition to LUBEOWNERS response above, Champ IS one of the OEMs for SOME carmakers, why would they warn people away from their own products? IF they are meeting minimum requirements, they have no need to say anything anyway.
I am more concerned for taking care of my own vehicles, than I am for protecting a manufacturer. If I see a product that obviously looks incapable of doing its job I will simply use an alternative product. Frams say that they meet or exceed mfgr specs also, I won’t use them either. I use a lot of “inexpensive” products by the way, as long as they do the job they are supposed to. Cutting up all my used filters is a great way for me to verify that what I am using is as good as I expect it to be.