film strength...

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Thanks Molekule thats what I was looking for.

Yes David the adds will affect the end product syn or petroleum. As always the final product is what is meaningful for the end user, not theory.

A synthetic or engineered base oil may need less or none of those adds to be a effective lubricant.
 
TTT

Im going to start bumping great threads that deserve a second look every now and again.

Happy Motoring All,

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Bugshu
 
Oil film bearings do not rely on the oil pump to lift the surfaces apart, like a hovercraft. The bearing itself draws oil into a wedge shaped zone (formed by the differing curvature of the two surfaces). More is drawn in than can pass through, so some has to do a U-turn and flow back the other way. This happens because the pressure rises very high (to make the fluid do the u-turn). This induced pressure is what holds the two surfaces apart.

How far apart they get depends on the load and the pressure. More viscous oils develop higher pressures, and therefore separate the surfaces more, for a given bearing and a given load/speed. All of this heats the oil tremendously, so the oil pump flushes out the hot oil, replacing it with cool oil for the next revolution. More viscosity=more heat and less flush flow, so you can have too high a viscosity.

I've mentioned viscosity as if it were fixed. Most oils are very Newtonian (the viscosity is independent of shear rate), but not totally. When the film gets very thin, long chain molecules reptate. Reptation is a term that refers to the chains lining up against one another in thin films (like snakes, hence the term). When they do this, the behavioral viscosity goes WAY up. When not in thin films, the chains curl and overlap, and the observed viscosity goes down.

This process is why oil with a viscosity the same as water lubricates much better than water. We use terms such as film strength and lubricity to describe this phenomenon.

Synthetics are made from uniform-length long chain structures..no aromatics, very low branching. More and longer chains results in better reptation and higher lubricity for a given "in the bottle" viscosity.

Without reptation and the resulting non-Newtonian behavoir, we'd need to run multi-hundred weight oil in the crankcase. It's also why molasses (which are high-viscosity) would make poor lubricant...no film thickening.

Shear stability is the ability of the molecules to not break apart when sheared. All this high shearing can (and does) mechanically break the molecules. This causes a loss in viscosity and an even larger loss in lubricity. Smaller molecules don't lubricate, because they don't reptate as well. Syn molecules are stronger, and can therefore get beat up more without breaking. It's one of the reasons they last longer.

Strictly speaking, higher viscosities do lubricate better, in that the oil films are thicker for a giver service, but not at the expense of thermal stress. Your oil pump is intended to dose all the bearings with fresh cool oil each rev. If the viscosity is too high, it can lead to oil flow bypassing the system through the pump pressure pop-off valve, bypassing the filter due to high DP, and mal-distributed flow through the journals. Because more heat will be generated in the bearings, they need more flow, but the high viscosity leads to less flow, so there's more heating and more bearing drag.

That's why bearings are designed (surface area, gap, finish, etc.) for a given oil viscosity in a given engine. More lubricity is better, not more viscosity.

Viscosity also affects heat transfer coefficient...not thermal conductivity, but rather film coefficient. It's harder to remove heat from thicker fluids by contacting with cool surfaces.
 
Yeah, but what's too thick? We've seen bearing problems with too thin lubes used eg. BMW M3's using 5-30, but they jumped to 10-60. Is this too thick?

We've also seen Aus. drivers here on the board use 25W-70 for 100k+ km in Mazda engines 'designed' for 5/30 and now for 5-20 in N.A.. Is this too thick? Why didn't the engine/bearings blow up like they did in the M3?

What are examples that people have that engines/bearings broke down because the lubricant was too thick??? ie. they used a 10-40/15-50 vs. a 5-30???
 
quote:

Yeah, but what's too thick?

Good question, Dr.T. With recommended viscosities for my motor ranging from 5W-30 to 10W-60, independent of ambient temperatures, even the manufacturer doesn't commit. I can only surmise that a 30 point spread is well within the motor's ability to tolerate viscosity differences without any ill effects.
 
It would appear from the following that too thin is far worse than too thick:

quote:

The most important property of a lubricant for plain bearings is its viscosity. If the viscosity is too low the bearing will have inadeaquate load-carrying capacity, whilst if the viscosity is too high the power loss and operating temperature will be unnecessarily high.

Lubrication, A Tribology Handbook (edited by M.J. Neale, publishec by SAE)

I would say, too thick might be where your oil pressure significantly exceeds manufacturer spec.
 
quote:

All this high shearing can (and does) mechanically break the molecules. This causes a loss in viscosity and an even larger loss in lubricity. Smaller molecules don't lubricate, because they don't reptate as well. Syn molecules are stronger, and can therefore get beat up more without breaking. It's one of the reasons they last longer.

This was a good thread. This quote above does then state the importance of shear stability.
 
quote:

This was a good thread. This quote above does then state the importance of shear stability.

When looking at shear stability or rather the resistance of an oil to shear under high pressure and temperature, wouldn't it make sense to consider the "reserves" an oil has and not only its shear resistance?

Let's say oil number 1 has 9.3 cSt at 150 degree C. Now take an equally well-made oil number 2 that has 15 cSt at 150 degrees. Let's say both oils shear the same amount, maybe 20%. While oil number 1 can't afford to shear, oil number 2 can afford to shear, because it's nowhere near the critical limit.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
Let's say oil number 1 has 9.3 cSt at 150 degree C. Now take an equally well-made oil number 2 that has 15 cSt at 150 degrees. Let's say both oils shear the same amount, maybe 20%. While oil number 1 can't afford to shear, oil number 2 can afford to shear, because it's nowhere near the critical limit.

That's kind of how I look at it. If I had to run a 5w20, I would want a straight grade like Redline so it would not sheer. I am sure there are several straight grade 5w20's out there.
 
Well ...you kinda also said that it is.

quote:

Shear stability, could be called viscosity stability after shearing. They take the oil and spray it under high pressure through a nozzle. This exposes the oil to high shear rates (beats it up).

So ..it's not this
quote:

Shear does not mean cutting the oil molecules, like in calling scissors shears.

..but it is this?

quote:

(due to breakdown of the oil molucules)

As in some longer chain molecules ...being not so long anymore???
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perhaps as if they had been

quote:

Shear does not mean cutting the oil molecules, like in calling scissors shears.

(yes, I'm asking for a more definitive assertion)

quote:

Shear means having one layer of a fluid moving faster than an adjacent layer...at a microscopic level.

Isn't this referred to as laminar flow?

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Sorry ...boring Monday morning.
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When that upper plate is moving very fast it is shearing the oil, causing it to behave as though it has a lower viscosity. If the motion was slowed back down the viscosity would come back to normal.

To me there is no breakdown of actual oil molecules. I do not see this happening by shear alone. Much higher temperatures would be needed.

aehaas
 
Maybe we shoudn't be calling it "shearing" -- it reminds me of what you do to sheep. We could just call it call "oil misbehaving."
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Just kidding, by the way.
 
Nice pic.

Shear rate is the rate of change in velocity with distance. dVx/dy.

Shear stress is momentum flux. In your drawing, shear stress is equal to the force pulling the top plate divided by the area of the plate.

Newton's law says that:

shear stress = - u * shear rate, where u is the absolute viscosity (cP). More u, more momentum flux for a given shear stress.

Take that top plate, and imagine it tilted down to the right. The oil moving to the right would try to squeeze through the opening on the right (smaller since the top plate is tilted). As the moving oil gets squeezed into the slot (by the moving top plate), the pressure goes up, resisting the flow. This pressure pushes the plates apart, supporting the bearing, and that's how they work. You can see how you want a fluid that resists being squeezed out of a thin channel...or rather, takes more pressure to do it. Pressure acts in all directions, in this case, forcing some oil back away from the slot, and at the same time, pushing the plates apart.

[ January 24, 2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: cit1991 ]
 
quote:

To me there is no breakdown of actual oil molecules. I do not see this happening by shear alone. Much higher temperatures would be needed.

If the local temperatures are high, due to high pressure shearing (shearing stresses are localized high pressures cutting across the molecule), the molecular bonds can break apart.
 
I can see that enough temperature will cause breakdown. Do you have a source that I could study. If not do not worry I can always search around. I like this sort of stuff, intriguing.

aehaas
 
We hava a bit of a nomenclature issue here. Shear does not mean cutting the oil molecules, like in calling scissors shears.

Shear means having one laver of a fluid moving faster than an adjacent layer...at a microscopic level.

Shear stability, could be called viscosity stability after shearing. They take the oil and spray it under high pressure through a nozzle. This exposes the oil to high shear rates (beats it up). If the oil's viscosity does not change much (due to breakdown of the oil molucules), then it's said to have a high shear stability. In other words, when used to lubricate, the oil stays as-is, and the viscosity does not drop (much). Therefore, it can last longer. Of course, this says nothing about thermal breakdown, ability to absorb junk from blowby, and things like that.

As for what is too thick an oil, the only way to tell is to test the engine and look for bearing wear. You spec an oil viscosity that will show a certain max wear under expected operating conditions...and no thicker. The manufacturer did this test for you, and the results can be found in the owners manual. It will be different for different engines, and even maybe the same engine in different services. Given the cooling surfaces (and/or a cooler), you want the oil to get hot enough to evaporate fuel and water, but not too hot leading to thinning and thermal breakdown of the base oil and its additives.
 
quote:

forcing some oil back away from the slot

Why would this happen? Why wouldn't the velocity just change?


Now please ...let's not prep for your disertation in your responce.
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