Fear of having children - serious discussion

[Cujet]

Hmmm...my life just has intrinsic value to me. Not because I've successfully passed my genes onto the next generation but because I'm having a really great time learning, thinking, discovering, and just living. So far I've had some accomplishments. I've helped people who were down and out/downtrodden and in need. I generally think I make the lives of those around me better; well certainly not worse. Since I don't believe in the afterlife I'm really trying to milk life for all it's worth.

Even if someone's genes get passed to the next generation, a hundred years from now or 1000 years from now or 1,000,000 years from now their life too will have no real meaning. Put it this way, someone's great grandchildren only share 12.5% of their genes. Great great grandchildren just 6.25%. Great x5 grandchildren 0.78%.

Someone's life really just has meaning to the individual and a small group of people around them for the time they exist and perhaps for the time their memory exists.

Genetic memory is now known to pass down at least 14 generations, and that number is just due to time of our testing limits. So, it's possible that the long term effect of passing down your genes is more significant than we tend to realize. My great grandfather owned an airplane in Russia. My distant ancestor was the navigator on Columbus's ship. My course in life was set in motion far before I was born. And like you, I have had a blast, and love life. Just wish I had passed that on.

 

[PWMDMD]

Genetic memory is now known to pass down at least 14 generations, and that number is just due to time of our testing limits. So, it's possible that the long term effect of passing down your genes is more significant than we tend to realize. My great grandfather owned an airplane in Russia. My distant ancestor was the navigator on Columbus's ship. My course in life was set in motion far before I was born. And like you, I have had a blast, and love life. Just wish I had passed that on.

My understanding of "genetic memory" is it may have some impact on subsequent generations based on epigenetic changes caused by environmental influences on a parent. That is to say, if you grow up in an abusive situation under constant stress and anxiety there can be epigenetic change (one example, histone acetylation/deacetylation either increasing or decreasing gene expression) that influences gene expression that can then be passed to subsequent generations. In this example, your children could be more likely to experience anxiety even if they do not experience the abuse. It is also my understanding that the evidence that this can pass anything more than upregulation or downregulation of gene expression is very limited. It also makes sense since meiosis starts with your diploid genome, both genetic and epigenetic, as the starting place for haploid cell production.

From a practical POV, my thought is the world just 100 years ago and earlier was probably an incredibly traumatic place for most people around the world and that none of us has been spared the trauma of our ancestors and so this isn't really all that valuable and it just results in a lot of background noise - Nearly 100% of people on the planet have ancestors who experienced significant trauma that was subsequently passed onto them. With that in mind, whatever genetic memory gets passed on probably still roughly follows the percentages above and it is mixed in with all the other progenitor's traumas. Your particular trauma is likely not any more important than everyone else's passed-down trauma

Interesting topic though!

 

[PWMDMD]

Genetic memory is now known to pass down at least 14 generations, and that number is just due to time of our testing limits. So, it's possible that the long term effect of passing down your genes is more significant than we tend to realize. My great grandfather owned an airplane in Russia. My distant ancestor was the navigator on Columbus's ship. My course in life was set in motion far before I was born. And like you, I have had a blast, and love life. Just wish I had passed that on.

I also just read there some evidence that language may be passed down through genetic memory. I just read the correct pronunciation of certain Vietnamese words seems to be linked to a particular distribution of gene expression, controlled by epigenetic factors, which are influenced by environmental factors of the parents, that can be subsequently passed down to their children.

 

[Pablo]

I also just read there some evidence that language may be passed down through genetic memory. I just read the correct pronunciation of certain Vietnamese words seems to be linked to a particular distribution of gene expression, controlled by epigenetic factors, which are influenced by environmental factors of the parents, that can be subsequently passed down to their children.

I read the same article. Makes sense.

I'm sticking with the vaguer tendencies of general human (detailed in some cases as above) characteristics v. hard specific memories in genomes though

Like certain people can surf on top of the mast in 20 foot seas, vs others puking on land 100 miles from the ocean. Sea going people survived some calamity and passed on their genes. Those who couldn't? Out of the gene pool!

 

[PWMDMD]

I read the same article. Makes sense.

I'm sticking with the vaguer tendencies of general human (detailed in some cases as above) characteristics v. hard specific memories in genomes though

Like certain people can surf on top of the mast in 20 foot seas, vs others puking on land 100 miles from the ocean. Sea going people survived some calamity and passed on their genes. Those who couldn't? Out of the gene pool!

My ancestors were definitely land lovers then! I get seasick watching people on boats on TV!

 

[Pablo]

My ancestors were definitely land lovers then! I get seasick watching people on boats on TV!

Yeah pretty I had many generations floating throughout the Mediterranean. Oddly all my wife's ancestors (to a point) are from Japan, she is the same as you. I'm like bring it on. Huge waves? I'm out fishing!

 

[Cujet]

Nearly 100% of people on the planet have ancestors who experienced significant trauma that was subsequently passed onto them.

Fear of snakes comes to mind. Many jump like crazy when suddenly encountering certain animals, and ignore others.

I make no claims to have developed into anyone special as my abilities are clearly from my ancestors. My engineering side come from my maternal grandfather, who helped develop the aircraft carrier steam catapult in and after WW-II, along with quite a bit of mechanical engineering elsewhere. His father was the airplane owner in Russia. My paternal side also had very technically capable individuals with some with an army aviation background from WW-1 and II. So it comes as no surprise that I'm a risk taking nerd fascinated by aircraft.

The more I learn about my ancestors, the more I see them in myself. I still wish I had passed this on.

 

[John105]

I think the post was on this forum. One can be this and one can be that. It's annual review time and so on my own self-assessment, as I was trained since my first job, I toot my own horn and walk on water. Really--the powers that be can refute my assertions, which are all fact. I have colleagues who say who cares that's not my job to review myself, and it doesn't matter anyway, no matter what I do I get 5% (not true). What I'm saying is we all tend to have a high opinion of ourselves, that others may, or may not agree with, and that really doesn't matter with the topic in this thread, it's what we believe to be the best decision.

Going back to the other thread that I was referring to, at the end of the day, not returning a shopping cart when shopping in public, truly says an awful lot about a person.

 

[John Galt]

Interesting questions you bring up here.

Who do I work for? Well, myself, literally and philosophically. Of course, my wife and children benefit from my work but I still don't look at it as working for them directly. My wife and I made a decision to marry and a consequence of this decision is some of my work effort goes to supporting her. My wife and I made the decision to have three children and as a consequence some of my work effort goes to supporting them. In the grand scheme of things in my mind 100% of my work effort goes towards the life I chose.

As a father, my obligation to my children is simple. Take a little person who is incapable of caring for themselves both physically and emotionally and grow that person up so that they can take care of themselves both physically and emotionally. My wife and I (and children) try and live our best life NOW. Life is short and I'm not making the mistake of living a worker bee life always thinking about the future, not living now, just to die at 50 and never experience life. I feel NO obligation to leave them anything after they are adults when I'm gone and furthermore once they are adults my wife and I will have ZERO problems continuing to use the fruits of my work to live OUR lives the best we can while we're here. If there's anything left over, cool, but I'm not sacrificing my life so my children can get an inheritance. I feel no obligation to leave a legacy beyond my children were loved, well taken care of while minors, and my wife and I taught them how to make their own lives. It is up to THEM to build the life they want and to care for themselves.

As a husband, my obligation is to care for my wife's needs for the rest of her life, even in the event of my early death. Here needs include her current needs which means living life NOW. We go on vacations frequently, not to keep up with Jones' but because we love traveling together. We go on date night several times per month to nice restaurants because we love going out together and great food. We live NOW.

Life is also a balance. We do not go into debt to do these things. I'm still saving sufficiently for my life after working. We could be putting more towards that but then again there's no guarantee either of us will see that time and so while we do sacrifice a little now it is not to the point of decreasing our quality of life now.

I say this with sincerity: Wow! your words and sentiments here could have almost been picked out of the book Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

This is not selfishness but a realization that I matter the most to myself and my spouse and I am responsible for fulfilling our needs and happiness, not others.

 

[RDMgr]

I was very apprehensive about having kids. Throughout my teenage years and into my 20s, I had this fear of having a child born with a major disability that required 24/7 care to keep them alive. I would never get to live the rest of my life.

I met a woman who had a 4 year old daughter. We hit it off really well. I found that I actually liked the idea of being a stepdad. That woman became my wife, and I adopted her daughter as my own.

Then, we had our own child when I was 29, my first and only biological child. We knew something wasn't right with her from the get-go as she wasn't reaching milestones and her overall temperament was different. That child is now about to be 5 years old with severe, non-verbal autism and major developmental delays. Mentally, she's a 1 year old. She requires 24/7 attention and care as she can do very little on her own. The chances of her living with us the rest of our lives, and never having that empty nest, are quite high. For me, it's my worst nightmare becoming a reality. I don't resent her, don't regret having her, lord knows I love her to death, but a lot of our plans for the future have definitely disappeared.

Speaking from experience...my wife and I are nearly 70 y.o. We have a 36 y.o. non-verbal autistic daughter. She functions on a 2-3 y.o. level. Your life will never be that of a traditional family or parent which is something you need to realize and accept as early as possible. Then you can move on with less stress and in a positive way. This doesn't mean it will be a bad life. For example, when my daughter was young we went to Disney, Universal, the beach, restaurants, etc.

The real kick in the teeth for us came when she was about 21 y.o. She started to get angry and aggressive. One time we had here in a buffet style restaurant. We were sitting in a booth. Behind us was a big, biker looking guy and his wife or girlfriend. The guy went to get their food, my wife went to get hers. My daughter was angry angry, I assume because she wasn't being fed yet. She reached around and went to grab the woman by the hair. I jumped across the table and grabbed her arm just in time to avoid a bad situation. We took her to the doctor, then to a psychiatrist who diagnosed her as bipolar. The bipolar is far more difficult to handle than the autism.

We haven't done any vacation trips or even simple things like eating in a restaurant for more than 15 years.

My daughter has been going to school since she was about 3 y.o. First she attended a specialty school for autistics. For the last 7-8 years she has been attending an adult program for mixed disabilities. She's doing well but we still deal with anger and aggression.

Being the parent of a severely disabled child or young adult can be isolating for obvious reasons. Also, there's very little, if any, spur-of-the-moment activities. Everything needs to be planned or simply not done. These things can be tough.

 

[carviewsonic]

Having kids is in a way ‘paying it forward’ when your looking at it from a financial and responsibility point of view. I’m glad my Grandparents had kids, and that my parents met and had me (and my sister), or I wouldn’t be here. I’ve had a pretty good life so far.
My now adult kids are enjoying their lives, my wife and tried to do our best in raising them.

 

[PWMDMD]

Speaking from experience...my wife and I are nearly 70 y.o. We have a 36 y.o. non-verbal autistic daughter. She functions on a 2-3 y.o. level. Your life will never be that of a traditional family or parent which is something you need to realize and accept as early as possible. Then you can move on with less stress and in a positive way. This doesn't mean it will be a bad life. For example, when my daughter was young we went to Disney, Universal, the beach, restaurants, etc.

The real kick in the teeth for us came when she was about 21 y.o. She started to get angry and aggressive. One time we had here in a buffet style restaurant. We were sitting in a booth. Behind us was a big, biker looking guy and his wife or girlfriend. The guy went to get their food, my wife went to get hers. My daughter was angry angry, I assume because she wasn't being fed yet. She reached around and went to grab the woman by the hair. I jumped across the table and grabbed her arm just in time to avoid a bad situation. We took her to the doctor, then to a psychiatrist who diagnosed her as bipolar. The bipolar is far more difficult to handle than the autism.

We haven't done any vacation trips or even simple things like eating in a restaurant for more than 15 years.

My daughter has been going to school since she was about 3 y.o. First she attended a specialty school for autistics. For the last 7-8 years she has been attending an adult program for mixed disabilities. She's doing well but we still deal with anger and aggression.

Being the parent of a severely disabled child or young adult can be isolating for obvious reasons. Also, there's very little, if any, spur-of-the-moment activities. Everything needs to be planned or simply not done. These things can be tough.

I was training at a children's hospital when my wife became pregnant with our first child. Children's hospitals are odd places because they tend to funnel the sickest children, the children with the most severe special needs, and the one in a million cases into a single healthcare facility. Working there day after day and being funneled these kids you quickly get a distorted view of reality and while you know the actual (and ever-changing) stats for things like autism spectrum disorder, in your day-to-day life +50% of all patients who entered the clinic had been diagnosed. As you know, these kids can be a challenge for parents, teachers, healthcare professionals, etc.

I'd say 1/4 to 1/3 of patients in private practice are "on the spectrum" and it is common to see kids who were previously manageable in an outpatient clinic setting become less or completely unmanageable with the onset of puberty. As they enter early adulthood they tend to either revert back to being manageable as we work with them or continue to down the path of being even more unmanageable. We typically take these adults to the OR. Obviously, new psychiatric diagnoses significantly add to the difficulties and challenges and bipolar disorder with its later-onset can really be a challenge. With this in mind, I was terrified for the birth and early part of life for all three of my children have witnessed the very real struggles that some kids/parents/families endure. While I certainly don't live with these struggles day-to-day, I do make my living having to navigate these issues on a daily basis.

We learned when my wife was pregnant with our 3rd child that she is a carrier for fragile-x syndrome. This is an x-linked disease that affects females much less than males. It is also the typical example in medical genetics courses for triple codon repeat diseases that show "anticipation". Basically, this disease is caused by repeating codons in a gene on the X-chromosome that inactivates the gene - the more repeats the more affected you are and it shows amplification of the repeats with every successive generation. For females, because they have two X-chromosomes (so one working copy of the gene) it can mean mild issues with memory and an increased risk of dementia later in life. For males, because they only have one copy of the x-chromosome and they receive it from their mother, it is the number one genetic cause of autism spectrum disorder and profound mental disability in males.

For all three of my boys, they had a 50:50 chance of receiving an affected x-chromosome from their mother - none are affected and none can be carriers. After early amino during the pregnancy of the third kid, we met with the genetic counselor and it was a short meeting. She said we had won the genetic lottery 3x in a row - stop reproducing. We scheduled a tubal ligation as part of my wife's c-section.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Speaking from experience...my wife and I are nearly 70 y.o. We have a 36 y.o. non-verbal autistic daughter. She functions on a 2-3 y.o. level. Your life will never be that of a traditional family or parent which is something you need to realize and accept as early as possible. Then you can move on with less stress and in a positive way. This doesn't mean it will be a bad life. For example, when my daughter was young we went to Disney, Universal, the beach, restaurants, etc.

The real kick in the teeth for us came when she was about 21 y.o. She started to get angry and aggressive. One time we had here in a buffet style restaurant. We were sitting in a booth. Behind us was a big, biker looking guy and his wife or girlfriend. The guy went to get their food, my wife went to get hers. My daughter was angry angry, I assume because she wasn't being fed yet. She reached around and went to grab the woman by the hair. I jumped across the table and grabbed her arm just in time to avoid a bad situation. We took her to the doctor, then to a psychiatrist who diagnosed her as bipolar. The bipolar is far more difficult to handle than the autism.

We haven't done any vacation trips or even simple things like eating in a restaurant for more than 15 years.

My daughter has been going to school since she was about 3 y.o. First she attended a specialty school for autistics. For the last 7-8 years she has been attending an adult program for mixed disabilities. She's doing well but we still deal with anger and aggression.

Being the parent of a severely disabled child or young adult can be isolating for obvious reasons. Also, there's very little, if any, spur-of-the-moment activities. Everything needs to be planned or simply not done. These things can be tough.

Man, that's a kick below the belt. I hate that for you and your daughter, but thank you for sharing your story. Even when outlooks are grim, it's good to hear of experiences. Our daughter, so far, has been a very happy child. She's been in pre-school, getting ABA therapy, since she turned 3. She progresses more and more each day. It's rare that we get a call from the school over misbehavior or anything. Everybody at her school knows her and adores her. She will babble a lot and we occasionally get a word or two from her. No 2-way conversation though. We're hoping, with enough therapy, that she'll get to that point.

 

[John Galt]

Man, that's a kick below the belt. I hate that for you and your daughter, but thank you for sharing your story. Even when outlooks are grim, it's good to hear of experiences. Our daughter, so far, has been a very happy child. She's been in pre-school, getting ABA therapy, since she turned 3. She progresses more and more each day. It's rare that we get a call from the school over misbehavior or anything. Everybody at her school knows her and adores her. She will babble a lot and we occasionally get a word or two from her. No 2-way conversation though. We're hoping, with enough therapy, that she'll get to that point.

My sympathy for what you are going through.

My wife works one-on-one with autistic and other spectrum disabilities in a K-6 school system. These kids do make significant progress with the right type of support. All her kids are helped while in regular classrooms. Very few accommodations are made, they are expected to do grade level work and for the most part they do just that! She has had a couple of what you might call savants - her latest charge has an IQ of 153 but can’t/won’t readily follow directions. Any homework or test mistakes he makes crush him. Keep stimulating your kid with new experiences, he might be a musical or STEM genius or he might be a regular Doff like most of us are.

Your job is to be their advocate and don’t take no for an answer. Time is critical in their development progress. My kids are both fine but since my wife has been doing this a long time our refrigerator and Christmas tree is covered with pictures of (and made by) the kids she has helped become functioning adults over the years.

 

[Al]

Speaking from experience...my wife and I are nearly 70 y.o. We have a 36 y.o. non-verbal autistic daughter. She functions on a 2-3 y.o. level.

Bless you. I know government resources are available. Any possibility or desire to institutionalize her sooner rather than later?

 

[RDY4WAR]

My sympathy for what you are going through.

My wife works one-on-one with autistic and other spectrum disabilities in a K-6 school system. These kids do make significant progress with the right type of support. All her kids are helped while in regular classrooms. Very few accommodations are made, they are expected to do grade level work and for the most part they do just that! She has had a couple of what you might call savants - her latest charge has an IQ of 153 but can’t/won’t readily follow directions. Any homework or test mistakes he makes crush him. Keep stimulating your kid with new experiences, he might be a musical or STEM genius or he might be a regular Doff like most of us are.

Your job is to be their advocate and don’t take no for an answer. Time is critical in their development progress. My kids are both fine but since my wife has been doing this a long time our refrigerator and Christmas tree is covered with pictures of (and made by) the kids she has helped become functioning adults over the years.

Thank you.

Funny enough, she was staying with my mother-in-law over the weekend. Out of nowhere, she went over to her standing mirror and started doing "head, shoulders, knees, and toes". I know they sing and dance it at school with her, but was not expecting her to pick up on it so easily, much less actually SAY the words! This is absolutely mind-blowing. Just a month ago, we couldn't hardly get anything out of her.

 

[John Galt]

Thank you.

Funny enough, she was staying with my mother-in-law over the weekend. Out of nowhere, she went over to her standing mirror and started doing "head, shoulders, knees, and toes". I know they sing and dance it at school with her, but was not expecting her to pick up on it so easily, much less actually SAY the words! This is absolutely mind-blowing. Just a month ago, we couldn't hardly get anything out of her.

Music uses a different part of your brain than speech, sounds like a possibility for connection is there. I‘d rush to get her something that can produce music notes without requiring any special skill to do that - a piano keyboard is perfect. Drums aren’t really musical at that level, plus many of these kids are sound level sensitive. Get something that she/you can play twinkle twinkle little star on.

 

[RDMgr]

My comments weren't to draw anyone's sympathy, simply to address a poster's concern regarding the fear of having a child who may have disabilities. I was pointing out that after having a disabled child you need to make concessions and life style adjustments. That doesn't mean that life is bad. My wife and I have been dealing with these issues for more than 35 years. We've adjusted and have even been asked to speak with younger parents who are having problems accepting and coping.

As far as my youngest's future, she has two older sisters who have already been made guardians. We have discussed the future with them. They suggested and we agreed that when my wife and I are no longer able to care for the youngest they will take over care. That care may be having her live with one or the other sister or to place her in a group home of their choice. She is already on a waiting list for a group home. They will oversee her financial, medical, etc. The details have been written into our will.

We're not worried about her future, she'll be in good hands.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Have a purpose that brings goodness to others and you will be remembered for a couple generation or even a few generations.

Do nothing for anyone and you will immediately be forgotten.

Being remembered forever isn't always a good thing. Personally...I don't care if I'm dead.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Take a look back at photo albums of your family and your childhood. You may recall that certain periods of life were very challenging or downright rough, but photos and memories can remind you how many happy memories that are there. Having children is no different. You may have bad memories of sleepless nights or rocking your sick child to sleep, but there are so many amazing moments too. Life is meant for living and loving your family.

Naah. No happy memories, never were and never will be. The world is a better place because I will never breed.