Evans Waterless Coolant

kyoo · Mar 6, 2013

Hey all,

Did a quick scan of this but did not come across any posts - sorry if missed.

Any thoughts on this stuff??
http://www.evanscooling.com/products/coolants/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ

Supposedly the main benefits are that it doesn't run water, which prevents any sort of issues with corrosion, and that it is non-toxic.

I have heard, however, that this coolant runs hotter than a "typical" coolant (evos use the green one). Can anyone explain to me why, within a normally operating system, any fluid, whatever fluid that is in there would run hot?

As far as I can understand, in general, the thermostat monitors temperature, opens up when it reaches the operating temperature and lets coolant run through the system, if under operating temperature it will keep it in the block. I don't understand how a coolant would run hotter unless its heat dispersion was bad enough to overwhelm the system. Is this more or less correct? I know there's variance in the temperature of course, but I've heard of a *few* accounts of people saying it ran hotter in their cars. When I spoke to an Evans rep they said if the car's not already overheating, there's no reason for this fluid to overheat in the car.

FYI, this fluid requires a full flush, dry block, then they fill it up with this stuff. Thoughts?

Saleen0679 · Mar 6, 2013

oggb · Mar 7, 2013

What's wrong with regular coolant?

kyoo · Mar 7, 2013

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: JRed
What's wrong with regular coolant?

It requires pressurization.
It has a limited life.
It allows for corrosion.
It operates at the upper end of it's temperature capacity.

All of these lead to cooling system failure which will leave you stranded.

kyoo · Mar 7, 2013

Could you guys comment on this part of the question?

As far as I can understand, in general, the thermostat monitors temperature, opens up when it reaches the operating temperature and lets coolant run through the system, if under operating temperature it will keep it in the block. I don't understand how a coolant would run hotter unless its heat dispersion was bad enough to overwhelm the system. Is this more or less correct? I know there's variance in the temperature of course, but I've heard of a *few* accounts of people saying it ran hotter in their cars. When I spoke to an Evans rep they said if the car's not already overheating, there's no reason for this fluid to overheat in the car.

Basically, whatever you put in there, it shouldn't run hotter than the temp the system was designed to run at right? Unless the cooling was so bad that it couldn't disperse the heat fast enough

keith · Mar 7, 2013

I believe the specific heat of the Evans coolant is lower than water based coolant. In other words, for the same coolant flow rate, less heat is carried away from the engine. If the cooling system is running close to its heat capacity with water based coolant, it might overheat on Evans. I had considered trying Evans, but instead did a flush and put in Peak Global Lifetime undiluted and added distilled water to get a 50/50 ratio. That just seems so much easier for a weekend mechanic.

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

Evans NPG has some drawbacks to a water-based coolant:

It is thicker so it requires more energy to pump it and it will not circulate as quickly. This is usually noticed by the lack of HVAC heat output in colder climates.

It's heat capacity and conduction are less than water so you MAY need to increase cooling capacity to stay at optimum temps. Usually this is not an issue and the engine tends to run at a slightly higher temperature but a more even temperature. The cooling system will also be more resilient, impossible to boil-over and very unlikely to overheat.

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

The conversion is a bit of a hassle and/or cost but overall I think it's a great way to go. You won't know all the details of your application until you or someone else tries it.

Every year I come across someone stranded from a coolant failure and it seems half are from neglect and the rest are from component failure or engineering fault. Evans NPG would resolve most of these issues.

The NPG makes sense if:

- you're planning on keeping a vehicle for a long time
- you're planning on tracking or racing
- you'd like to save money/time on maintenance
- you live in a warmer climate
- your vehicle has known cooling issues which would be alleviated by a non-pressurized system
- your vehicle cooling system has low reserve capacity
- you're planning on significantly increasing your engines power output

mechanicx · Mar 7, 2013

Evans coolant is a bad idea. The extra heat would be bad for gasket, seals and even hard parts like valve seats, among other issues. There's good reason manufactures spcify ethylene glycol and water at 50/50. They don't even recommend propylene glycol let alone 100% concentrate.

http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm
Quote:
Conversion costs of $259 if you do it yourself, or over $400 if you pay a shop to do it.

97%+ removal of all previous coolant is mandatory in order to prevent corrosion.

Inhibitor deposition occurs on aluminum surfaces, which could cause issues in some radiators.

Engines run 115-140oF hotter (at the cylinder heads) with Evans products.

Stabilized coolant temps are increased by 31-48oF, versus straight water with No-Rosion.

Reprogramming ECU fan temp settings is mandatory to prevent the fan from running continuously.

Specific heat capacity of Evans waterless products ranges from 0.64 to 0.68, or about half that of water.

Engine octane requirement is increased by 5-7 numbers.

Computerized ignition must retard engine timing by 8-10o to prevent trace knock.

Engine horsepower is reduced by 4-5%.

Accelerated recession of non-hardened valve seats in older engines is possible, due to brinelling.

Viscosity is 3-4 times higher than what OEM water pumps are rated to accommodate.

Coolant flow rate through radiator tubes is reduced by 20-25% due to the higher viscosity.

Race tracks prohibit Evans products because they are flammable and slippery when spilled.

kyoo · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: keith
I believe the specific heat of the Evans coolant is lower than water based coolant. In other words, for the same coolant flow rate, less heat is carried away from the engine. If the cooling system is running close to its heat capacity with water based coolant, it might overheat on Evans. I had considered trying Evans, but instead did a flush and put in Peak Global Lifetime undiluted and added distilled water to get a 50/50 ratio. That just seems so much easier for a weekend mechanic.

Right, but even if less heat is carried away, the thermostat will force it to constantly flow through/carry heat away if it is running hotter - and unless it's a terrible cooling system, won't it run in the designed range? If it cannot run in the designed range, wouldn't the engine totally overheat?

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Evans coolant is a bad idea. The extra heat would be bad for gasket, seals and even hard parts like valve seats, among other issues.

Absolutely not true. There are also many inaccuracies on that website. It's obvious what they're trying to do with misinformation.

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: kyoo
Right, but even if less heat is carried away, the thermostat will force it to constantly flow through/carry heat away if it is running hotter - and unless it's a terrible cooling system, won't it run in the designed range?

Correct, the thermostatically controlled cooling system will self-regulate to stabilize the temperature. The result is not an overheating situation, the bulk coolant temperature will be higher and your temperature gauge will read higher.

If you could monitor 100 points around the engine you should find a more even temperature distribution. The better temperature control reduces stress and allows for higher power output.

artificialist · Mar 7, 2013

Regular Mitsubishi coolant is green, but it is not the same as the usual green stuff sold in a variety of places. It has silicates and Mitsubishi green does not have silicates. If you use the generic green, it will destroy the water pump quickly! It happened to my mother's Mitsubishi van.

Anyway, I wouldn't use NPG, I am afraid to.

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Anyway, I wouldn't use NPG, I am afraid to.

That's a terrible reason but at least it's an honest one? Fear and ignorance can be cured thankfully.

artificialist · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Anyway, I wouldn't use NPG, I am afraid to.

That's a terrible reason but at least it's an honest one? Fear and ignorance can be cured thankfully.

I just feel that if NPG was right for the car, then the service manual would allow for it.

martinq · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: artificialist
I just feel that if NPG was right for the car, then the service manual would allow for it.

If you get deep into maintenance requirements and analysis you'll find there are plenty of 'right' things that the manual/mfg will not allow for. At some point it's best to gain understanding so you can think for yourself.

I would not recommend NPG as an OE replacement coolant unless there was a good reason for it. I mentioned some of those above.

kyoo · Mar 7, 2013

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: kyoo
Right, but even if less heat is carried away, the thermostat will force it to constantly flow through/carry heat away if it is running hotter - and unless it's a terrible cooling system, won't it run in the designed range?

Correct, the thermostatically controlled cooling system will self-regulate to stabilize the temperature. The result is not an overheating situation, the bulk coolant temperature will be higher and your temperature gauge will read higher.

If you could monitor 100 points around the engine you should find a more even temperature distribution. The better temperature control reduces stress and allows for higher power output.

Sorry - so yes it will self regulate, but around a higher temperature? Can you explain what the process is? ie for whatever fluid, let's say very simplistically that the thermostat is designed to operate to maintain the temperature at 100 degrees(whatever). when it's above 100 degrees, it'll pump coolant through the system until it gets back to 100, and when its below, it'll keep the coolant in the block until it reaches 100 - correct?

or is it more like, the thermostat is designed to operate from 95-100 degrees, and water will hover around 95 and evans will hover around 98? something like that? Then this is true for any fluid right? Let's say water is around 95, and evans is around 98.. then maybe pure coolant would be around 97, 100, whatever? In other words, what about evans is different from running pure coolant, where this running hotter on average issue isn't really noted? I don't see how it could be WORSE than pure coolant at heat dispersion

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Regular Mitsubishi coolant is green, but it is not the same as the usual green stuff sold in a variety of places. It has silicates and Mitsubishi green does not have silicates. If you use the generic green, it will destroy the water pump quickly! It happened to my mother's Mitsubishi van.

Anyway, I wouldn't use NPG, I am afraid to.

I've been using off the shelf green in the evo for a while, I haven't noticed anything different about it?

I'm not sure some of what people have said about evans still stand - for example, I'm not even sure if it does run hotter - the evans tech said it should not. Not sure why the fan would run all the time, unless the above also followed. I don't think a low pressure cap is necessary either. Maybe I should just stick with typical 50/50 mix. Corrosion kind of worries me, but I don't know how I feel about the entire system running hotter on average (if true).

martinq · Mar 8, 2013

Originally Posted By: kyoo
I'm not sure some of what people have said about evans still stand - for example, I'm not even sure if it does run hotter - the evans tech said it should not.

The engine will not run significantly hotter than normal but your temperature gauge will likely read a little higher.

I suggest getting a few books on engines/cooling and doing some reading. You need to get an idea of how the system works and why (also the details on your own system). Things will start making sense as you learn. Giving you answers about something you don't understand won't really help much, it just leads to more questions.

artificialist · Mar 10, 2013

Originally Posted By: kyoo

I'm not sure some of what people have said about evans still stand - for example, I'm not even sure if it does run hotter - the evans tech said it should not. Not sure why the fan would run all the time, unless the above also followed. I don't think a low pressure cap is necessary either. Maybe I should just stick with typical 50/50 mix. Corrosion kind of worries me, but I don't know how I feel about the entire system running hotter on average (if true).

Mitsubishi green coolant uses no silicates, the regular green does. Silicate destroys water pumps that were made for non silicate coolant.

That is why 2 cars in my family had failed water pumps halfway through the life of the timing belt.

Evans Waterless Coolant

Similar threads