EV beaters

[PandaBear]

Maybe not aftermarket, but reconditioned used batteries definitely. It’s my understanding that Tesla installs reconditioned batteries as replacements when there’s a battery failure covered under warranty.

I think going forward, most EV battery warranty would like be pro-rated so that salvaged limited range battery can be used for warranty claims. Also manufacturers would offer trade in or upgrade program to let owners trade in a limited range battery for a newer longer range one, and the limited range batteries would be sold to those needed to extend their beaters' life.

The only problem is there are no standard on size and type, so it is very limited on what can be swapped into what.

 

[y_p_w]

I think going forward, most EV battery warranty would like be pro-rated so that salvaged limited range battery can be used for warranty claims. Also manufacturers would offer trade in or upgrade program to let owners trade in a limited range battery for a newer longer range one, and the limited range batteries would be sold to those needed to extend their beaters' life.

The only problem is there are no standard on size and type, so it is very limited on what can be swapped into what.

It might be tricky, because the warranty would cover be dropping below 70% original capacity (by range?) or obviously complete battery failure. If it's at 69%, what do they do? Replace it with a reconditioned battery rated at 70%. That wouldn't seem to be much of a deal, especially with the possibility that someone gets loose.

I'm thinking of the way that Apple warranties, "repairs", and sells "battery service" for iPads. With limited exceptions, it's all reduced to a fully device replacement with a guaranteed new battery. But for the battery replacement service (at a cheaper price) the requirement is that the battery capacity be less than 80% of new (nominal). If it isn't, they might refuse that service. But then there's a damage fee for almost anything that's cheaper than a new device. That would be if it's physically damaged in or out of warranty, or there's malfunction out of warranty. Then there's the warranty service, which is also a replacement. I've done that once when my iPad wouldn't connect through a cable, although it could charge.

But in that case the battery is guaranteed to be new regardless. They're not going to try and match battery capacity. But the other wear item is the flash memory, where the replacement device may be reconditioned, but have a new battery. But in that case the idea is that there's always a new battery with any factory "service".

 

[PandaBear]

It might be tricky, because the warranty would cover be dropping below 70% original capacity (by range?) or obviously complete battery failure. If it's at 69%, what do they do? Replace it with a reconditioned battery rated at 70%. That wouldn't seem to be much of a deal, especially with the possibility that someone gets loose.

I'm thinking of the way that Apple warranties, "repairs", and sells "battery service" for iPads. With limited exceptions, it's all reduced to a fully device replacement with a guaranteed new battery. But for the battery replacement service (at a cheaper price) the requirement is that the battery capacity be less than 80% of new (nominal). If it isn't, they might refuse that service. But then there's a damage fee for almost anything that's cheaper than a new device. That would be if it's physically damaged in or out of warranty, or there's malfunction out of warranty. Then there's the warranty service, which is also a replacement. I've done that once when my iPad wouldn't connect through a cable, although it could charge.

But in that case the battery is guaranteed to be new regardless. They're not going to try and match battery capacity. But the other wear item is the flash memory, where the replacement device may be reconditioned, but have a new battery. But in that case the idea is that there's always a new battery with any factory "service".

It is indeed going to be tricky, but what I have learned in life is that sometimes it is easier to guarantee predictable result than not guaranteeing anything at all if all or bust.

A gas car will not function if something break, or it will throw a CEL and break the emission law, fail smog check, etc. EV with a worn battery can still work for a certain range and if people don't want it they can trade it in, or sell it used. I think a predictable rate of decline in range is something people can accept, or plan for, so they know how long to use something and whether it is worth repairing.

For EV, a planned depreciation and obsolete would be needed to keep people happy. Early commuters with EV (110 miles range) would just lease and then let someone else take over the worn out EV 3 years later, at a higher cost of ownership than buy new and drive till the wheels fall off. There will be a market for used EV and it is not cheaper because of cosmetic condition, and people will buy them according to what range is left, and manufacturer can put extended warranty on it based on some self test result much like the CPO program on gas car. I can totally see that it would work. Swapping cars to get rid of range anxiety or affordability problem is the best way to do it.

The worst case scenario would be demanding only perfect or nothing, then we all know manufacturer would just give us nothing.

 

[Nick1994]

4 years ago I could have gotten a 2015 Fiat 500e for $6k with 26k miles. Should have picked one up as a beater.

 

[zzyzzx]

I would think that even if it's a beater I'd want to be able to buy things like most parts for the vehicle. I'm not convinced that you can on a Tesla, if Rock Auto is any indication.

 

[dogememe]

I would think that even if it's a beater I'd want to be able to buy things like most parts for the vehicle. I'm not convinced that you can on a Tesla, if Rock Auto is any indication.

It's not just Tesla. Buying anything Volt-specific (aka parts that are not shared with Cruze or other GM vehicles) is tough. I haven't needed to fix anything on my car, yet I am aware of this. For many parts used is the only option. Obviously for those parts shared with other GM vehicles, they are readily available from dealer or aftermarket without problems. So compared to Tesla it's at least just some parts, not ALL parts, that are hard to get for non-Tesla EVs.

 

[PandaBear]

I would think that even if it's a beater I'd want to be able to buy things like most parts for the vehicle. I'm not convinced that you can on a Tesla, if Rock Auto is any indication.

When it is a beater it means it is affordable to keep around. Botique worn out cars with sky high part costs like Mercedes get crushed usually pretty early.

 

[zzyzzx]

When it is a beater it means it is affordable to keep around. Botique worn out cars with sky high part costs like Mercedes get crushed usually pretty early.

If you can't get EV specific parts, then I would expect those to get crushed early as well. The lack of affordable replacement battery or motors come to mind (although I imagine a junkyard motor would suffice in most cases).

 

[PandaBear]

If you can't get EV specific parts, then I would expect those to get crushed early as well. The lack of affordable replacement battery or motors come to mind (although I imagine a junkyard motor would suffice in most cases).

Very true, but the thing about EV is, electric motor and power electronics if designed correctly would not age based on miles or years. In theory electric motors should last as long as the rest of the car, unless it is a design defect (like 1st gen Prius' motor stator), and should last a very long time if design right (i.e. 2nd gen Prius). I think in both case you just have to buy from a reputable manufacturer regardless of which type of vehicles you buy. Nissan has gas vehicle in the junk yard being crushed at 70k miles because of CVT failures, and the resell value of the car is not worth replacing the CVT after warranty expire.

Battery is assumed to be a wear and tear item, you just have to budget the replacement or depreciation (again, assume it is designed correctly and manufacturer would replace it if design defect).

 

[zzyzzx]

Battery is assumed to be a wear and tear item, you just have to budget the replacement or depreciation (again, assume it is designed correctly and manufacturer would replace it if design defect).

I'm not disputing that a battery is a wear item on an EV. But when you price the wear item at $20,000 it totals the car, which is probably intentional.

 

[PandaBear]

I'm not disputing that a battery is a wear item on an EV. But when you price the wear item at $20,000 it totals the car, which is probably intentional.

It is priced at $20k probably because it cost almost that much (maybe cost $10k or 15k, they do need overhead and profit). This is why Tesla is successful because they know the best way to hide a $20k battery is in a luxury car with high margin.

However, the way Li battery age they are likely ok for a while, just reduce their range as they age. So they are still going to be ok as they sell to short trip drivers as local cars.

I think in China NIO did a trial of battery rental and sell you a car without battery, you can swap your battery up to 4 times a month and they will take care of the depreciation instead. Many users say it is about the same cost as gas (they are not cheap in China) and the car is about $10k USD cheaper than the gas equivalent, so I guess that would work?