Ester Based Synthetic Oil on Startup

[Velo_Fello]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I think this is a piston slap and its attendant other associated noises on the caravan v6.

No, I know the difference between rod knock and main bearing rumble, versus piston slap.


Maybe a purolator classic with a group I/II high polarity HD oil would cure your startup issuies at lower costs. Recommend JD 10w-30 SL farm equipment oil or MTD/Yardman 10w-30 SH/SJ.

Interesting comment. How is it known they are high polarity?

Grp III and IV bases have very low/no polarity and solubility and would be the worst performers.

Certainly.

The Corolla could use RT 10w-30 or RT-5 no need for 40wt.


Certainly; but don't forget the short trips and the high TBN and high TBN retention of Rotella T.

 

[Velo_Fello]

No; I remain quite firm on this point; in step 4 above I replaced only the oil. Hence, it was a controlled experiment, as stated.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Also, to get more specific, we used Mil-L-23699 when engine start temps were above -40C and Mil-L-7808 when temps were below -40C. Here is how much Mil-L-7808 costs:

Hi Indy,

I designed esters for and formulated 23699 and 7808 oils in my past life, and sold them to the US Miltary for over 20 years. Both are based 100% on polyol ester basestocks with about 4-5% additives. The esters used in jet engine oils are a bit seal aggressive for car engines, and of course the oils lack the detergents and dispersants needed to deal with car engine blow-by. POEs for automotive use are more seal friendly, and the broader viscometric specifications allow advanced ester designs with enhanced lubricity and cleanliness.

Historically the Military paid much less than commercial airlines for these jet engine oils since the oils lacked commercial engine builder approvals. Prices were usually $4-6/quart delivered until the last couple of years, when the DGSC stopped buying directly from the manufacturer and started working through an inventory management/distributor company. In addition, the raw materials for POEs have gone up tremendously in the past several years The oil you linked to at $13+/qt is a commercial 7808 through a distributor - the Military should hopefully be paying less than that when ordered through the contract management company. I believe Redline is under $10/quart delivered.

Tom NJ

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

No; I remain quite firm on this point; in step 4 above I replaced only the oil. Hence, it was a controlled experiment, as stated.



And I remain quite firm: oil won't make the kind of difference you're describing, because the bearings will *never* be "dry" due to the small clearance and surface tension. Doesn't matter what group number the base oil is.

Lifters are another story- any drain-back at all will potentially entrain air in the lifter and make it noisy as heck. Harmless, but noisy nonetheless.

 

[jazeo]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

No; I remain quite firm on this point; in step 4 above I replaced only the oil. Hence, it was a controlled experiment, as stated.



And I remain quite firm: oil won't make the kind of difference you're describing, because the bearings will *never* be "dry" due to the small clearance and surface tension. Doesn't matter what group number the base oil is.

Lifters are another story- any drain-back at all will potentially entrain air in the lifter and make it noisy as heck. Harmless, but noisy nonetheless.



I really would prefer not to take sides on this issue, however I'm gonna have to agree with 440Magnum. It's far more likely the noise your hearing is upper valve train noise and not crank or rod bearings. No oil, any brand would help.

It would have been interesting if you knew what brand dino was used instead of going from unknown to RP. Then you could have tried other dino's to see if they would have helped as well. Then maybe we could have determined if there was an x-brand oil that is substandard. Of course we would still have to determine it wasn't an oil filter/drain back issue..

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: jazeo


I really would prefer not to take sides on this issue, however I'm gonna have to agree with 440Magnum. It's far more likely the noise your hearing is upper valve train noise and not crank or rod bearings. No oil, any brand would help.
It would have been interesting if you knew what brand dino was used instead of going from unknown to RP. Then you could have tried other dino's to see if they would have helped as well. Then maybe we could have determined if there was an x-brand oil that is substandard. Of course we would still have to determine it wasn't an oil filter/drain back issue..


I should clarify my statements too- I can see how a significantly different GRADE of oil might change drain-back symptoms. If the unknown dino oil was significantly thinner, it might drain back much more quickly than the RP.

I just can't attribute these symptoms (or their disappearance) to the presence or absence of Group V oil components. Especially since I'm not even sure that RP has much in the way of Group V.

And don't worry about me being offended if anyone "takes sides" against me- I see this as a simple engineering-based debate. The OP has one interpretation of some observations, and I have a very different interpretation that makes more sense to me personally based on my own experience with oils in engines left sitting for a long time, and with engine noises I have heard when I get the occasional oil filter with a leaky ADB valve. I don't mind being proven wrong at all if it furthers understanding of how things work.

 

[jazeo]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: jazeo


I really would prefer not to take sides on this issue, however I'm gonna have to agree with 440Magnum. It's far more likely the noise your hearing is upper valve train noise and not crank or rod bearings. No oil, any brand would help.
It would have been interesting if you knew what brand dino was used instead of going from unknown to RP. Then you could have tried other dino's to see if they would have helped as well. Then maybe we could have determined if there was an x-brand oil that is substandard. Of course we would still have to determine it wasn't an oil filter/drain back issue..


I should clarify my statements too- I can see how a significantly different GRADE of oil might change drain-back symptoms. If the unknown dino oil was significantly thinner, it might drain back much more quickly than the RP.

I just can't attribute these symptoms (or their disappearance) to the presence or absence of Group V oil components. Especially since I'm not even sure that RP has much in the way of Group V.

And don't worry about me being offended if anyone "takes sides" against me- I see this as a simple engineering-based debate. The OP has one interpretation of some observations, and I have a very different interpretation that makes more sense to me personally based on my own experience with oils in engines left sitting for a long time, and with engine noises I have heard when I get the occasional oil filter with a leaky ADB valve. I don't mind being proven wrong at all if it furthers understanding of how things work.


I agree!

 

[INDYMAC]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Also, to get more specific, we used Mil-L-23699 when engine start temps were above -40C and Mil-L-7808 when temps were below -40C. Here is how much Mil-L-7808 costs:

Hi Indy,

I designed esters for and formulated 23699 and 7808 oils in my past life, and sold them to the US Miltary for over 20 years. Both are based 100% on polyol ester basestocks with about 4-5% additives. The esters used in jet engine oils are a bit seal aggressive for car engines, and of course the oils lack the detergents and dispersants needed to deal with car engine blow-by. POEs for automotive use are more seal friendly, and the broader viscometric specifications allow advanced ester designs with enhanced lubricity and cleanliness.

Historically the Military paid much less than commercial airlines for these jet engine oils since the oils lacked commercial engine builder approvals. Prices were usually $4-6/quart delivered until the last couple of years, when the DGSC stopped buying directly from the manufacturer and started working through an inventory management/distributor company. In addition, the raw materials for POEs have gone up tremendously in the past several years The oil you linked to at $13+/qt is a commercial 7808 through a distributor - the Military should hopefully be paying less than that when ordered through the contract management company. I believe Redline is under $10/quart delivered.

Tom NJ


What a small world Tom. Those were fantastic lubricants that you formulated and manufactured for us. How do I know? Well I'm still alive! I'll have to check some of my old flight suits to see if they still have samples on them from pre-flights!

I get your drift about the link I provided. I just wanted people to see what a ester based engine oil really costs on the open market. Luckily, I never had to write the check for all the oil we used in the Navy.

Jack

 

[Velo_Fello]

Thank you for all your interesting comments. I've thought about them for a few days.

I don't think the type of filter is important. On a Caravan the filter is upside down, so it's physically impossible for oil to drain out. There's actually no need for an ADBV.

As to the noises, I'm familiar with all the noises an engine can possibly make. I've dismantled and rebuilt about five motorcycle engines and was once a racing motorcycle mechanic. I have no doubt whatsoever that I'm hearing big end and main bearing noises. I have one shot engine on my hands, friends.

So, I still believe the ester-based oil helps.

The comment about using Grp I & II oils is intriguing. Lower cost, certainly. May well give it a whirl and see.

How do we know they stick to engines, though? How would the molecules be polar? That's where I'm still stuck.

 

[Scuderia]

I don't think neither Red Line nor Motul use 100% ester in their formulations. And I don't think all of Motul's products are exclusively a GrpIV and GrpV mix.

The 300V is a mix of GrpIV and GrpV at least. This is the only oil on the market today that I'm aware of that is a true 100% synthetic. The waste code on the MSDS is 13 02 06 for "synthetic oil", as opposed to 13 02 05 for "mineral based oils" which the rest of their products carry.

All of their 8100 are mostly GrpIV, and all of them have some GrpIII, but the % of GrpV varies. You can usually tell by the price and if the bottle has the words "ester based" on it. The Eco-nergy 5W30 is the cheapest 8100 at $8.00 a quart, but their X-lite 0W30 is the most expensive at $13 a quart and the bottle says "ester based" on it.

 

[qship1996]

Motul has created quite a confusing lineup, as you stated even different weights in the same line{8100} are composed of different basestocks! Why I like redline so much....make 1 oil, the best you know how, and charge a reasonable price for it- no confusion there.

 

[Velo_Fello]

I don't think ester based oils need to be 100% ester containing to get the 'stickiness' I'm posting about.

Do we have any oil chemists able to weigh in on this?

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

Thank you for all your interesting comments. I've thought about them for a few days.

I don't think the type of filter is important. On a Caravan the filter is upside down, so it's physically impossible for oil to drain out. There's actually no need for an ADBV.


You're must consider that the ADBV is the "check valve" for the whole oiling system in most cases- a few engine designs have anti-drainback valves external to the filter, but not many. Without an ADBV, oil drains out of the galleries and lifters and back into the filter, EVEN IF the filter is right side up (gasket up like the Caravan- I call filters like the Slant-6 which mounts gasket-down "upside down."

Regardless of terminology- the key is that a leaky ADBV can let air into your oiling system and the lifters, whereas a working ADBV prevents it, or at least GREATLY slows the process down so that it takes days rather than minutes.

Quote:
I have no doubt whatsoever that I'm hearing big end and main bearing noises. I have one shot engine on my hands, friends.


I seriously doubt that. For one thing, rod and main bearing sounds don't go away a few seconds after startup. For another, 158k miles on a Chrysler 3.3 is happy early middle age, unless its been horribly abused. Now if it were a 2.7 or a Mitsu 3.0....

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

I don't think ester based oils need to be 100% ester containing to get the 'stickiness' I'm posting about.


I don't think you'd ever even notice a difference in practice. Its a molecular effect- any added "sticking to metal" due to the polar nature of esters will only be a few molecules thick. Regular old surface tension keeps a layer of conventional or PAO hundreds of times that thickon bearing journals for weeks/months/years after shutdown anyway.

And frankly, I'd be more worried about the competitiveness for bonding sites with better startup anti-wear additives like ZDDP anyway. If there were a real, demonstrable effect on startup wear, I suspect Motul and Redline would be all over it. But their major arguments are ester's superior performance in other regimes, not startup.

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Do we have any oil chemists able to weigh in on this?


TomNJ has weighed in several times.

 

[Velo_Fello]

I once removed the valve cover on my Kawasaki EX500 to check valve clearances. It was running on Motul based on Group V. Sure enough, oil was sticking to the underneath of the valve cover. I ran my finger on the underneath of the cover and oil ran down my hand, quite literally. Oil was sticking to everything, not just the valve cover.

I repeated this with Castrol Syntec after the changeover to Group III (not knowing about the substitution). This time, the cover was almost bone dry, and the rest of the visible top end also.

These experiences lead me to think that one advantage of using Group V is that there would be no dry start-ups. Some oil would remain sticking to the bearings, rings, cams, etc.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

I once removed the valve cover on my Kawasaki EX500 to check valve clearances. It was running on Motul based on Group V. Sure enough, oil was sticking to the underneath of the valve cover.

I repeated this with Castrol Syntec after the changeover to Group III (not knowing about the substitution). This time, the cover was almost bone dry, and the rest of the visible top end also.




My point is that the underside of the valve cover doesn't need oil on startup, even assuming that it was dry because of the group III oil and not because of some other difference between the two cases (I don't for a second believe that Group III oil had anything to do with it).

Bearings DO need oil, but ester oil doesn't stay in them any better than any other oil because surface tension keeps it there. I've never cracked a bearing cap, even on engines that had been sitting in storage for 10+ years, and found it dry. Never. There's always oil in the small bearing clearance area. The whole "dry start" thing is way overblown. Yes, more wear happens on a startup cycle than in continuous operation, but NOT because anything is "dry," the excess wear is because components are cold. It actually happens in the minutes *following* start up, not right at startup. Just my opinion.

I've got nothing against ester oil, and esters make great additives in any base stock. But in my engineer's experience-based judgment (admittedly not having heard your engine), its not having any effect on the noises your 3.3 makes. Something else is making that difference. You can go on and spend all you want for Royal Purple, Motul, or Redline, but the condition that is *actually* provoking the noise will come back at some time and you'll get a noisy start. Just don't be surprised or disappointed when it happens. And knowing the 3.3, it will probably happen on and off again for about another 200,000 miles...

 

[Velo_Fello]

What about the rings and the cams?