Ester Based Synthetic Oil on Startup

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I would think polarity would impact film strength and volatility and this is where polarity might be important


Yes, as well as additive solubility, cleanliness, lubricity, and seal balance. Esters do "cling" to metal surfaces, but so does the protective film from ZDDP, and this is all that is needed for start-up protection.

Tom NJ

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
I still repeat my comment: Why is there no debate as to Esters on this site?


There has been lots of discussion on esters on this site. You may find this helpful:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/an-overview-of-esters-in-synthetic-lubricants.94994/

Tom NJ

 

[Velo_Fello]

Most useful; thanks.

It does reference the "inherent polarity" of esters, which is the point I've been referring to.

 

[Velo_Fello]

This I did not realize. The copy leads one to think it's all esters.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
I understand that one of the advantages of Group V ester based synthetics is that they are polar. They stick to the inside of the engine. Castrol Syntec used to advertise this (i.e., before going to Group III).

So, there would be no dry start-ups with Group V. Some oil would remain sticking to the bearings, cams, etc.

What is the general consensus on this?


Esters (commonly in automotive motor oils diesters and poly olesters) are more "polar". This means that they tend to stick to metal, even hot metal.

On the downside they compete with common additives like ZDDP for surface space on the metal and tend to degrade many gasket and seal materials.

What was found 40 years ago was that you got many of the benefits of the esters by simply adding a bit of them to a nonpolar base stock (at that time polyalphaolefin, now more commonly Group III base stocks), without the problem of gasket and seal degradation and a much lower cost.

With some exceptions (turbines and jet engines, for examples) there really is not much practical benefit to a 100% ester - either diester or poly olester - oil when you draw a cost benefit line.

Modern examples of blends include the Mobil 1 motorcycle oils, the Red Line motor oils, and a number of others.

 

[HARTZSKY]

Are you guys saying using Redline is going to eat up my seals and gaskets?

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

Once I used Motul pure Grp V. I took off the valve cover and oil was indeed sticking to it. My fingers got wet with oil.

Later I used Castrol Syntec Grp III (after the infamous reformulation). The valve cover was almost as dry as a bone.

Later I used Mobil 1. Again, same thing; dry valve cover.

So, that is why I keep thinking that Grp V oils stick to the insides of engines.

The original Syntec marketing was quite specific about the polarity of Grp V oil. I kept it, and have rechecked it: positive charge on engine, negative charge on the oil molecules.


With Mobil 1 oils I never have had to take valve covers off an engine, except with one exception. I owned two Ford diesel engines in an Escort and Tempo in the mid 80s, and every 15K the valve clearance required checking.

 

[Velo_Fello]

Originally Posted By: HARTZSKY
Are you guys saying using Redline is going to eat up my seals and gaskets?



Quite the reverse.

Esters are natural seal-swellers. My oil leaks and oil consumption has dropped since using Redline.

 

[Velo_Fello]

This seems correct, to me.

Can any of our tribologists weigh in on this? (-- with apologies, Sir, if you are one}

 

[mechtech2]

Velo -

I think that your crank bearing surfaces and bearings are soaked and wet with either oil. I'd bet $1,000,000 on it.
This sound like a viscosity or filter problem.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Mech is right just, bearing will hold oil do to tension and capillary action in the small clearance, Guys remember depending on cut group I oils are polar due to the diversity of structure as is the inferior naphthenic base oils (v. paraffinic). Korean MSDS on Mobil 1 0w-40 ACEA and the Mobil 1 R4T motorbike oils show a good and "proper" % of esters in the blend. They are some of the better and best true synthetic Mobil products.

 

[addyguy]

I find it weird how the whole 'oil cling' thing caught on in Australia, but not in NA. Over in AU, Castrol 'Magnatec' oils are big sellers, using the same marketing idea that was in Start-Up - an Ester content helps reduce dry starts.

Over here, that whole concept was a bust - Castrol 'Start Up' never caught on. If I were Castrol, I would have dropped the 'Syntec blend' line, and pushed Magnatec/Start Up, especially for cold starts in NA climate.

 

[INDYMAC]

Originally Posted By: mcrn
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I was not aware that any automotive engine oils were ester based. I thought that only aviation turbine engines required this exclusively, and some compressor applications. Thanks for the Motul heads up! Do you know what esters they use? I know there are many.


Redline is also Ester based. Im surprised that you have been on the forum this long and have not heard more about them.


Yes, I'm aware of esters being used in most if not all engine oils. I just didn't realize that Redline and Motul were primarily ester based (100%?). Do you know exactly what esters are being used as their primary base oils? Like I said, in naval aviation our engine oils were primarily ester based. This is interesting...

 

[INDYMAC]

Also, to get more specific, we used Mil-L-23699 when engine start temps were above -40C and Mil-L-7808 when temps were below -40C. Here is how much Mil-L-7808 costs:

http://www.skygeek.com/air-bp-lubricants-turbo-oil-2389.html#top

It's an ester based synthetic engine oil. Do Redline and Motul cost this much too? If so, how can users justify the cost?

 

[jonny-b]

Redline contain Polyol Ester base stocks. Another advantage, is that the synthetic base stocks have a natural multigrade propertey, which means less need for unstable polymeric thickeners to multigrade oils.

 

[cfromc]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Also, to get more specific, we used Mil-L-23699 when engine start temps were above -40C and Mil-L-7808 when temps were below -40C. Here is how much Mil-L-7808 costs:

http://www.skygeek.com/air-bp-lubricants-turbo-oil-2389.html#top

It's an ester based synthetic engine oil. Do Redline and Motul cost this much too? If so, how can users justify the cost?


Not quite that much, but close. Its justified by either extended intervals, extreme racing, or warm fuzzies by using one of the best PCMOs.

 

[Velo_Fello]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Velo -

I think that your crank bearing surfaces and bearings are soaked and wet with either oil. I'd bet $1,000,000 on it.
This sound like a viscosity or filter problem.


Let me give you the full story. Sorry for the long post. But I think it’s an important topic. Bear with me.

1. My Dodge Caravan 3.3 L. V6 has 150K miles and shot crank bearings. It was running on 5w30 conventional; I forget the type. Filter was Fram PH16. The racket on startup was painful, lasting 5 seconds or so. It went away as soon as the oil reached the crank bearings. The rod knock and main bearing rumble went away.

2. I put in Royal Purple 5-30 and another Fram PH16. The effect was magical. There was no more noise on startup. I thought RP was straight Grp V, but now I know that is not true. As I understand it, it’s a blend of Grp III and Grp V. I attribute the noise vanishing to the retention of the Grp V element by the bearing surfaces: crankshaft journals, mains, big ends. This retained oil stays there for those vital 5 seconds.

3. I had some work done by a mechanic. Without authorization, he drained the RP and put in bulk conventional 5w30; type not known. By coincidence, he replaced the filter with another Fram PH16. The appalling noise came right back.

4. I replaced the oil with RP 5-30. The noise went away immediately.

I think this qualifies as a controlled experiment insofar as only one variable was changed, viz., the oil. I realize that RP is disliked on this site, but it could be useful for high mileage engines. It seems to have just enough Grp V to keep the noise away. I accept that we don’t need 100% Grp V, and that as a practical matter it’s OK to blend it; say 20 25%; who knows?

Next, I’ll be using Redline 20-50. I’ll let you know how that works out.

FURTHER COMMENTS:
1. I’ve been using Redline 5-30 in two Mazda Miatas with noisy lifters. In one case, it completely cured the tappet noise. The other case is more intractable. It was once really loud and persistent, for say 45 seconds, then OK. Same story next day: 45 seconds or so of racket. But now it’s down to 2-3 seconds. I attribute this to the inherent cleansing effect of Grp V oils, cleaning the old gunk out of the bad lifter (from the steady diet of bulk dino from previous owners).

2. My younger son’s Saturn SL1 leaked oil atrociously. RP has completely cured this. Esters have natural seal-swelling properties. And Redline cured the cam angle sensor O-ring leaks on both Miatas.

3. I’m running Rotella T 5-40 (all Grp III) in my older son’s Corolla, 127K miles; no noise on startup; mostly short trips. I’m not obsessively ‘married’ to Grp V oils.


CONCLUSION
I’m fan of Grp V oil blends. But I don’t advocate them for everyone. They’re costly, and, for Redline, hard to source. For a new vehicle, I think one would run any good Grp III or IV; Rotella, PP, Mobil, etc. Perhaps, though, one would run Grp V at say 100-125K miles, if needed, depending on the noise at startup (which depends on engine wear, which depends on vehicle usage: short trips, long trips, etc, etc.)

Does anyone else on this site have any Grp V stories?

 

[sangyup81]

on that one that wasn't completely cured, try some Red Line for us

RL should have a higher Group V content than RP

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I think this is a piston slap and its attendant other associated noises on the caravan v6. Maybe a purolator classic with a group I/II high polarity HD oil would cure your startup issuies at lower costs. Recommend JD 10w30 SL farm equipment oil or MTD/Yardman 10w30 SH/SJ. Grp III and IV bases have very low/no polarity and solubility and would be the worst performers. I will be running the MTD 5w30 Snowking oil in about a month in the yaris w/ a wix filter.
The Corolla could use RT 10w30 or RT-5 no need for 40wt.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Velo -

I think that your crank bearing surfaces and bearings are soaked and wet with either oil. I'd bet $1,000,000 on it.
This sound like a viscosity or filter problem.


Let me give you the full story. Sorry for the long post. But I think it’s an important topic. Bear with me.

1. My Dodge Caravan 3.3 L. V6 has 150K miles and shot crank bearings. It was running on 5w30 conventional; I forget the type. Filter was Fram PH16. The racket on startup was painful, lasting 5 seconds or so. It went away as soon as the oil reached the crank bearings. The rod knock and main bearing rumble went away.



I'd bet Mech's $1 mil that you had an oil FILTER with a bad anti-drainback valve. Classic, classic symptom. And the fact that it was a Fr*m only strengthens my confidence that the filter was at fault. Note also that much of the racket you hear might be hydraulic valve lifters with entrained air, not necessarily all bearing-related. The Chrysler 60-degree v6 engines seem to make a lot of lifter racket when the lifters are partly dry- more than most v8s I've owned.


Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

2. I put in Royal Purple 5-30 and another Fram PH16. The effect was magical. There was no more noise on startup.


Even Fr*m makes a filter that doesn't drain back once in a while. You happened to get a good one this time.


Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
I thought RP was straight Grp V, but now I know that is not true. As I understand it, it’s a blend of Grp III and Grp V. I attribute the noise vanishing to the retention of the Grp V element by the bearing surfaces: crankshaft journals, mains, big ends. This retained oil stays there for those vital 5 seconds.


RP is mostly Group IV, with, I'm sure, some Group III for enhanced additive solubility and maybe even some V. As others have said, the bearing clearances themselves will stay wet indefinitely with any type of oil. It wasn't the RP, it was the filter.

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
3. I had some work done by a mechanic. Without authorization, he drained the RP and put in bulk conventional 5w30; type not known. By coincidence, he replaced the filter with another Fram PH16. The appalling noise came right back.

4. I replaced the oil with RP 5-30. The noise went away immediately.


Betcha replaced the filter again too. The mechanic put on another bad one, you got another good one. That's my experience with Fr*m- about half of them drain back terribly.

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello

I think this qualifies as a controlled experiment insofar as only one variable was changed, viz., the oil.



Nope- two variables change- oil AND filter.

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
I realize that RP is disliked on this site, but it could be useful for high mileage engines.



I actually like RP and use it in my '66 440. But its my very firm opinion it had NO effect on your noise. And I *certainly* would never recommend that you spend the money for RP or Red Line oil, and then use the worst (or at least with the worst reputation) oil filter on the market. Get a Wix, Purolator, M1, Motorcraft, or just about anything else but a Fram, or you'll be wasting the money you spend on oil and the problem will come right back when you get a typically leaky Fram ADB valve. What's more, I firmly believe that a Purolator filter and a plain-jane group II oil like Pennzoil conventional, Valvoline, Havoline, or whatever would solve your start-up noise problem completely. Use synthetics if you want, but the filter is where the problem is.