Ester Based Synthetic Oil on Startup

[Velo_Fello]

I understand that one of the advantages of Group V ester based synthetics is that they are polar. They stick to the inside of the engine. Castrol Syntec used to advertise this (i.e., before going to Group III).

So, there would be no dry start-ups with Group V. Some oil would remain sticking to the bearings, cams, etc.

What is the general consensus on this?

 

[Panzerman]

Castrol Had the GTX start-up oil that I think did just this. They dont sell it anymore, but I bought and used alot of it when it was on clearence and loved the stuff. I would be still buying it, if it was avaiable.

 

[The Critic]

Genuine Nissan Ester oil probably does this to some degree.

 

[mechtech2]

I have seen many engines that sat for long periods.

They all have oil all over.
I don't think this is a problem with conventional oils.

 

[Newtonville]

I also think there will always be a static oil film left over, caused by surface tension of the oil, not "polarity." I think they use that term loosely in the ads. The crankshaft bearings require oil pressure an a certain journal clearance to prevent damage. If the engine was really dry at start it would get pretty nasty. So I think every start could be called a dry start.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I have seen many engines that sat for long periods.

They all have oil all over.
I don't think this is a problem with conventional oils.



X2.

I've taken apart engines that sat outside for God only knows how long. The cam and crank bearings still had oil on them.

 

[Velo_Fello]

Once I used Motul pure Grp V. I took off the valve cover and oil was indeed sticking to it. My fingers got wet with oil.

Later I used Castrol Syntec Grp III (after the infamous reformulation). The valve cover was almost as dry as a bone.

Later I used Mobil 1. Again, same thing; dry valve cover.

So, that is why I keep thinking that Grp V oils stick to the insides of engines.

The original Syntec marketing was quite specific about the polarity of Grp V oil. I kept it, and have rechecked it: positive charge on engine, negative charge on the oil molecules.

 

[INDYMAC]

I was not aware that any automotive engine oils were ester based. I thought that only aviation turbine engines required this exclusively, and some compressor applications. Thanks for the Motul heads up! Do you know what esters they use? I know there are many.

 

[mechtech2]

Velo - So those premium oils left dry engines?

 

[Velo_Fello]

Yes: in two cases.
1. Motorcycle, with Castrol Syntec, Grp. III. Valve cover totally dry, apart from microscopic film.
2. Camry 2.2 4 cyl, with Mobil 1, mostly Grp. IV. Exact same experience.

Also this: I have a Dodge Caravan 3.3 V6, 158K m., with shot crank bearings. If run on bulk dino, the noise on startup is atrocious. I hear my crank hammering away for 5 seconds!

But on the current fill of Royal Purple 5-30, Grps III & V, I believe, it's almost silent on startup. I attribute this to the esters sticking to the inside of the engine, ergo, no dry start-up.

So, I'll soon go over to Redline 20-50, mostly Grp V.

COMMENT: I'm surprised this forum does not talk more about the property of Esters to stick to engines. As I say, Castrol made a big deal of this when they first brought out Syntec; it was almost all esters.

 

[Gary Allan]

I think you're referring to Castrol "Startup" ..which came with that misnomered/misquoted sales jingle of "90% of all wear occurs at startup". Failing to mention that this is the first 20 minutes (+/-) of the operational event.

Try a different filter if you get start up noise.

 

[Velo_Fello]

.I've tried them all. At the time of the bad noise I mentioned, I was using Purolator Pure One. This is believed to be a reputable filter, with a good ADBV.

Right now, I'm using an orange Fram with the Royal Purple.

I still repeat my comment: Why is there no debate as to Esters on this site?

 

[mcrn]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I was not aware that any automotive engine oils were ester based. I thought that only aviation turbine engines required this exclusively, and some compressor applications. Thanks for the Motul heads up! Do you know what esters they use? I know there are many.


Redline is also Ester based. Im surprised that you have been on the forum this long and have not heard more about them.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Once I used Motul pure Grp V.


Are we sure that Motul (even the 300V) is 100% Group 5 basestock???
It seems that NONE of the claimed 'group 5' basestock boutique oil companies will divulge that info (grp. 5 basestock % content), and ALL state the usual "proprietary info" disclaimer.

 

[BobFout]

MCRN, yup, Redline and Royal Purple are some of the few brands that will TELL YOU what their base stock is made of. RP is Group IV and V (don't know percents, though).

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I have seen many engines that sat for long periods.

They all have oil all over.
I don't think this is a problem with conventional oils.



X2.

I've taken apart engines that sat outside for God only knows how long. The cam and crank bearings still had oil on them.


X3. I've opened engines in some rural/vintage wrecking yards (where they never crush) in vehicles that had registration and inspection stickers well over 10 years expired, and I have always found a reasonable film of oil in the moving parts. Same on engines that I've personally stored for long periods (there's a 440 in my garage that's been there for 6 years and was in a friend's garage for 8-9 years before that.... still had oil between the rockers and shafts when I pulled a valve cover.

You don't need ester to "stick" to metal.

A question I do have about ester oils... how prone to absorbing moisture are they? I know that ester-based refrigerant oils are far, far more hygroscopic than mineral-based refrigerant oils. But then I also know that there are dozens (if not hundreds) of different chemicals that fall in the category of "ester" oils, so I don't assume they're all the same. Is there a problem with the particular esters used in engine oils absorbing moisture?

 

[Velo_Fello]

No; not sure 100%; it was 15 yrs ago.

But, even if it's only 80% or whatever, one supposes it would still have the same "wet start-up" properties.

 

[simple_gifts]

I would think polarity would impact film strength and volatility and this is where polarity might be important, but then again I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
COMMENT: Castrol made a big deal of this when they first brought out Syntec; it was almost all esters.


Prior to changing over to Group III, Castrol Syntec contained only a small percentage of ester. The vast majority of the base oils was PAO. Their "Unique Molecular Bonding" claim was based on the ester component and was disallowed by the BBB NAD after the Mobil challenge.

Tom NJ

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
A question I do have about ester oils... how prone to absorbing moisture are they? I know that ester-based refrigerant oils are far, far more hygroscopic than mineral-based refrigerant oils. But then I also know that there are dozens (if not hundreds) of different chemicals that fall in the category of "ester" oils, so I don't assume they're all the same. Is there a problem with the particular esters used in engine oils absorbing moisture?


The esters used for refrigeration applications are dried to a water content of
Tom NJ