"Error Loading Operating System" - Windows XP

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Nothing is obvious, and I don't believe it is for sure that the HD is dead (p.s. I used to develop HD firmware so I hope I know a little). It could be that a bad software program has corrupted the hard drive's data so windows can't boot up, and it could be hard drive going bad, but usually if a hard drive is going bad it will keep trying to re read the sectors and timeout, and the failure points will be different every time (random).

The only true way to find out is the use a SMART tool to get the raw diagnostic info out of it. Something like this:

smart.JPG
 
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Nothing is obvious, and I don't believe it is for sure that the HD is dead (p.s. I used to develop HD firmware so I hope I know a little). It could be that a bad software program has corrupted the hard drive's data so windows can't boot up, and it could be hard drive going bad, but usually if a hard drive is going bad it will keep trying to re read the sectors and timeout, and the failure points will be different every time (random).

The only true way to find out is the use a SMART tool to get the raw diagnostic info out of it. Something like this:


I thought I saw this is freeware, so I'll give it a try to.
What would I look for in the diagnostic results that warns of inevitable failure?
 
Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
I thought I saw this is freeware, so I'll give it a try to.
What would I look for in the diagnostic results that warns of inevitable failure?


If the reallocated sector grow, then it is failing. In a perfectly functioning drive this sector should stay at near 0 after the manufacturing process.
 
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Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
The first test with Disk Cleanup showed a 0 for reallocated sector growth.


That's good, no bad sector. You should be able to keep using that HD with no problem.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear

That's good, no bad sector. You should be able to keep using that HD with no problem.


Can it get worse tomorrow, etc., or does that mean pretty much that it's in fine shape?

I tried running the diagnostics from the cd and started running the extended scan. Something about a "seconds" utility or something does not function correctly, but that is all I saw wrong by the time I left, as it is still scanning.

I'm trying to run all the tests I can to figure out if there is anything else wrong.
Is that reallocated sector growth about all I'd need to focus on?
Are there any other tests that could denote bad spots on the HD that, although written elsewhere and it appears fine now, could grow and cause a failure again soon?
 
HD is only responsible for reading and writing sectors (512 byte unit) for the rest of the system. File system is responsible for telling which file is in where, and in theory a HD that went bad physically means the reading and writing sectors (not files or partitions) cannot be performed.

Many of the failures on files/partitions are due to software writing incorrect data or corrupting data. The true way to find out whether a HD is bad is by looking at the diagnostic (analog and digital signal processing) portion of its internal. HD read/write head send out analog information (magnetic) that is recorded down as analog, and this signal is amplified and filtered before it even reach its internal chip (by a small chip on the arm of the drive called pre-amp, pre amplifier).

Many sectors (about 5-40% of them) have imperfection that the data written to the disk has error correction code on it. ECC on a hard drive is very strong, you have to corrupt in the order of 100 bits out of a sector (512 bytes, or 4096 bits) in order to render it unreadable. Before it even reach unreadable, in theory the HD firmware will reallocate it to another sector internally, and increase the reallocation sector count. That's why it is important to keep track of this value and see if it grow. Running Scandisk or low level format in the old days force the entire HD to be rewritten and check for any sectors need to be reallocated, but today the software (windows, dos, linux, bios, etc) will not see any bad sectors until it ran out of internal spare sectors to reallocate.

For consumer, this pretty much is the only number that matters. The rest of the values tells you how long has your drive been used, like the odometer of a car. It is not always a good indicator of the drives' life, and it varies from manufacture to manufacture and from model to model. Without design information you can't do much with them anyways.
 
Would it be safe to say it was an O/S error and not the HD?

I'm trying to reason out whether I'm going to need a new computer in the short term, as I've found some great deals currently.

Other than that Disk Checkup, is the diagnostics from the cd worth much consideration when I run those tests?
Is there anything specific to try on them to help determine if the recently cleaned HD has errors, even right after I just loaded on the O/S fresh?
 
You are right there are some good deals out there on Windows 7 systems.

Life is short. Why worry about/spend a lot of time with an old XP Box - get everything loaded and working - have another crash?

Windows 7 comes with a good backup program that you can use for backups to that new external hard drive you bought.
 
Originally Posted By: SrDriver
You are right there are some good deals out there on Windows 7 systems.

Life is short. Why worry about/spend a lot of time with an old XP Box - get everything loaded and working - have another crash?

Windows 7 comes with a good backup program that you can use for backups to that new external hard drive you bought.



Yeah, that is how I feel.
I am just a tight wad when it comes to spending money in the 3 figures and up.
48.gif

I think about what bills I could put that towards or what it would buy for my car or truck...Hah!
 
Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
Would it be safe to say it was an O/S error and not the HD?

I'm trying to reason out whether I'm going to need a new computer in the short term, as I've found some great deals currently.

Other than that Disk Checkup, is the diagnostics from the cd worth much consideration when I run those tests?
Is there anything specific to try on them to help determine if the recently cleaned HD has errors, even right after I just loaded on the O/S fresh?


I would say yes, it is more of a software or OS error. Since you already wipe out your old data, there aren't much additional test that will be helpful. Most of these test just try to recover data and partition that were corrupted. You probably don't need to worry much about anything else.

BTW, just out of curiosity what is the temperature reading on the drive? Usually HD is designed to tolerate up to 60C but the ideal is to keep it below 45C, and anything at or below 40C is sufficient and will not be beneficial to cool it any further.

If you feel like buying a new computer, that's fine too, but if you have already gone through the work to reinstall everything and don't want to spend more $, why bother?
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear

I would say yes, it is more of a software or OS error. Since you already wipe out your old data, there aren't much additional test that will be helpful. Most of these test just try to recover data and partition that were corrupted. You probably don't need to worry much about anything else.

BTW, just out of curiosity what is the temperature reading on the drive? Usually HD is designed to tolerate up to 60C but the ideal is to keep it below 45C, and anything at or below 40C is sufficient and will not be beneficial to cool it any further.

If you feel like buying a new computer, that's fine too, but if you have already gone through the work to reinstall everything and don't want to spend more $, why bother?


Oh ok, thanks a bunch!
I'll check on the temp today. I looked at it yesterday but it hadn't been on long when I glanced at it.

As far as buying a new computer.
I'd really like to have one, but I don't want to spend the money either. Shocker, huh?
It is just that with this computer being 5-6 years old, no working battery (will run me $150+ from Dell, unless I want a knock-off -- which I haven't had good luck with) -- I have to stay within plug-in length of the outlet at all times, the computer can often get too hot to sit on your lap or even the couch, etc., the right mouse pad button no longer works (which means I have to carry a mouse around with me if I need it), and sometimes when I flip open the top the screen takes several extra minutes to appear or doesn't appear at all (maybe once every 10 or 20 times I turn on the computer).

I may be forgetting something...but you get the idea.
crazy2.gif
 
Two types of corruption as has been described. There is logical corruption, where the file system data has been corrupted by the O/S. There is physical corruption where the drive can no longer reliably read or write physical sectors.

(That's a gross oversimplification, but it works.)

Pandabear did a good job of describing what is going on under the covers.

Not having developed drive firmware, I only know this second hand. But what I've been taught is that most drive geometries presented today are simply a logical fiction in order to satisfy the Cylinder/Head/Sector logic built into many computers that we've not gone away from.

Most drives have variable geometry, but those details are hidden from the O/S, and for good reason. It's likely done differently by different vendors. So the drive's electronics manage where a given block is located on the physical disk.

As he said, if a sector is failing, that sector can be relocated to a spare sector. I was taught that drives have a number of spare sectors and spare tracks as well. I suspect this too is now a logical fiction, as the drive manages that.

I replace a fair number of drives (SCSI, SAS, FCal and SATA) and I see all sorts of failure modes. Drives just stop spinning, they complain about impending failure (SMART), the on-board electronics can no longer see the physical drive, and so on...

I probably replace one or two enterprise class FCal drives every day, and see all sorts of failure modes.

The bottom line is disks fail, so have your data stored in more than one place.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
As he said, if a sector is failing, that sector can be relocated to a spare sector. I was taught that drives have a number of spare sectors and spare tracks as well. I suspect this too is now a logical fiction, as the drive manages that.


No, that's still true, but the "sectors" are now non uniform in size and they may internally cross different "servo sectors" or tracks.

Last time I heard (4 years ago), they are using heating elements to bulge the arm and heads to micro control the head fly height and pressure. Also after several thousand repetitive writes to a certain tracks, the adjacent tracks' data will be weakened and the firmware automatically refresh it.

Some "science fiction" I heard since then were laser mount right before the read heads to warm up the tracks to be read/written, and shipping a drive that is not yet done with manufacturing process to the OEM customer, so the final formatting is done when it is first turned on and installing a disk image, or running the burn in test.
 
DiskCheckup.jpg


What does this spin up line mean for me?
It says "Predicted TEC" is August 21st or something.
When I hit the help button on the program it says:

"Spin Up Time (ID: 3)
Represents the average amount of time required to spin up the drive spindle to operational speed from a stopped state."
 
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Spin up time is how long does it take from an off drive to spin the rpm of the disk up to speed. Your 991ms is very fast, mine is in the range of 4 seconds.

Don't worry about TEC, it is likely a bogus algorithm to predict when will your HD die. Which is non sense based on spin up time.

p.s. HD manufactures usually cheat on these number to make their drives look perfect. Seagate normalize the read error to be between 50 and 60, and Samsung always show 0 unless your drive is dying (too late). Only temperature and reallocated sectors seems to be actually useful in predicting the condition of a drive.
 
Nice!
Thank you very much.

I've seen a computer with the following that I'm really having a hard time dismissing, especially with the aforementioned issues with this computer:

15.6" screen
500GB 7200rpm HD
3GB RAM
Windows 7
Intel i5 processor
backlit keyboard
fingerscan security
and so on...

Under $700 shipped to my door!
It is everything I'd like, but with this HD *appearing* to do just fine, I'm having a guilty conscience to just push this thing to the side.
Oh the agony!
 
If you need your laptop portable, just buy a new one. Otherwise, all of your problem seems tolerable: mouse instead of touch pad, put it on a table instead of on your lap to avoid the heat, etc

But at some point, you don't need to tolerate it if you can afford something more comfortable. Based on what you said about your current laptop, the rest of the system will last probably 2 more years the most. Divide 700 by 5 years, that's $140 a year, tolerating 2 more years to save $280 may or may not be worth it depends on how much pain you are enduring.

I'm glad that I bought a low heat laptop (Pentium M) that is still tolerable after 7 years. If I bought a P4 laptop back then, I'd throw it out the window already.
 
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