Engine startup wear understanding
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Originally Posted By: TTK
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Is Castrol's whole Magnatic stuff mostly marketing?
Yes, and the marketing seems to work well too.
Bet you can't prove it is just marketing
You're right, and I'll bet you can't prove it isn't just marketing.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Is Castrol's whole Magnatic stuff mostly marketing?
Yes, and the marketing seems to work well too.
Bet you can't prove it is just marketing
You're right, and I'll bet you can't prove it isn't just marketing.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Is Castrol's whole Magnatic stuff mostly marketing?
I would have named it Magnatick myself, it has a nice resonance...
Is Castrol's whole Magnatic stuff mostly marketing?
I would have named it Magnatick myself, it has a nice resonance...
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Most of the wear from start up occurs during the moments between when the engine starts and when it builds oil pressure. The concept behind lower viscosity oils is that they flow much better in cold environments, so the engine bearings will have oil quicker.
Nope, the wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of operation.
and almost ALL of that the oil is flowing, and pressure is there.
Most of the wear from start up occurs during the moments between when the engine starts and when it builds oil pressure. The concept behind lower viscosity oils is that they flow much better in cold environments, so the engine bearings will have oil quicker.
Nope, the wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of operation.
and almost ALL of that the oil is flowing, and pressure is there.
My FIL had a Chev 350 cu in plow truck that he would put into gear as soon as cylinder #1 fired. On a cold engine. The abuse that that thing endured was amazing. It lived a long life. An example of one, I know, but that thing was one tough truck.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
... But cold thick oil does not sling as well (say SAE 30 at near freezing), so this area suffers. Add to that the enriched fuel/air mixture which dilutes and washes oil off the upper cylinder walls, and you have wear.
We have all now seen modern EFI engines with 200,000 miles with the cylinder hone pattern still showing. That is proof that much better fuel control (compared to carburation) and modern oils have gone along way toward curing this issue ...
When the cylinder walls are cold, we not only have condensed fuel washing oil off the walls as you say, but, even worse, condensed water as well.
My 1981 carbureted Mazda still had the cylinder hone pattern clearly showing at well beyond twice that mileage, using 1980-2003 vintage conventional oils. EFI isn't necessary to pull off that trick. It did probably suffer through fewer cold starts than the average car engine, proportionate to its mileage. (I try to minimize needless cold starts.)
... But cold thick oil does not sling as well (say SAE 30 at near freezing), so this area suffers. Add to that the enriched fuel/air mixture which dilutes and washes oil off the upper cylinder walls, and you have wear.
We have all now seen modern EFI engines with 200,000 miles with the cylinder hone pattern still showing. That is proof that much better fuel control (compared to carburation) and modern oils have gone along way toward curing this issue ...
When the cylinder walls are cold, we not only have condensed fuel washing oil off the walls as you say, but, even worse, condensed water as well.
My 1981 carbureted Mazda still had the cylinder hone pattern clearly showing at well beyond twice that mileage, using 1980-2003 vintage conventional oils. EFI isn't necessary to pull off that trick. It did probably suffer through fewer cold starts than the average car engine, proportionate to its mileage. (I try to minimize needless cold starts.)
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope, the wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of operation.
My car hardly never gets to run as long as 20 minutes - I'm wondering if it will last the year out....
Nope, the wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of operation.
My car hardly never gets to run as long as 20 minutes - I'm wondering if it will last the year out....
Originally Posted By: bradtech
What about all the auto-stop features they are putting on the newer cars? Do you guys foresee premature engine failures due to excessive stop/start in traffic?
Typically they don't stop the engine while it's cold.
What about all the auto-stop features they are putting on the newer cars? Do you guys foresee premature engine failures due to excessive stop/start in traffic?
Typically they don't stop the engine while it's cold.
So, most of the wear occurs prior to oil reaching full temp? Obviously, my powerstroke 6.7 will take a lot longer (13 qts) than will my Mazda 3.7 (5.5 qts) to get to full temp...also weather factors, etc. Trying to wrap my head around oil at full temp optimizes anti-wear protection...thus lower wear at full temp.
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Originally Posted By: mbacfp
So, most of the wear occurs prior to oil reaching full temp? Obviously, my powerstroke 6.7 will take a lot longer (13 qts) than will my Mazda 3.7 (5.5 qts) to get to full temp...also weather factors, etc. Trying to wrap my head around oil at full temp optimizes anti-wear protection...thus lower wear at full temp.
It's not just that, but during the warm-up phase, you have parts changing size at different rates as they heat. They are "at their best" once fully up to temperature, on the way there you have pistons out of round, rings that aren't sealing as well....etc. All of this adds to wear.
So, most of the wear occurs prior to oil reaching full temp? Obviously, my powerstroke 6.7 will take a lot longer (13 qts) than will my Mazda 3.7 (5.5 qts) to get to full temp...also weather factors, etc. Trying to wrap my head around oil at full temp optimizes anti-wear protection...thus lower wear at full temp.
It's not just that, but during the warm-up phase, you have parts changing size at different rates as they heat. They are "at their best" once fully up to temperature, on the way there you have pistons out of round, rings that aren't sealing as well....etc. All of this adds to wear.
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
Got me to thinking . What if your car engine had an electric 12 VDC oil pump which came on , say , 30 seconds ( or until an oil sensor showed positive oil pressure ) . Then the starter circuit was enabled .
Would not be unlike energizing the glow plugs on a diesel engine .
The Rover SDI launched in the UK in 1975 had a device that turned off the ignition until 3 psi oil pressure was achieved. Previous cars equipped with same engine - the all alloy Buick 215 from the 1960's essentially - were reasonably long lived without such a device.
One consequence was that if the battery wasn't in good shape or the engine was out of tune it would be cranked over for prolonged periods with the choke on, a good recipe for rapid startup wear.
Claud.
Got me to thinking . What if your car engine had an electric 12 VDC oil pump which came on , say , 30 seconds ( or until an oil sensor showed positive oil pressure ) . Then the starter circuit was enabled .
Would not be unlike energizing the glow plugs on a diesel engine .
The Rover SDI launched in the UK in 1975 had a device that turned off the ignition until 3 psi oil pressure was achieved. Previous cars equipped with same engine - the all alloy Buick 215 from the 1960's essentially - were reasonably long lived without such a device.
One consequence was that if the battery wasn't in good shape or the engine was out of tune it would be cranked over for prolonged periods with the choke on, a good recipe for rapid startup wear.
Claud.
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope, the wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of operation.
My car hardly never gets to run as long as 20 minutes - I'm wondering if it will last the year out....
LOL...the first 20 minutes is something like the next full couple of hours...that's where they get the "70% (or 85%, or 90%) of wear occurs at startup" number that's used everywhere.
Doesn't mean that short trips will kill your engine this week.
The Colorado has GM's oil life monitor....15,000km, 9 mo nominal service
Follow it with the Holden Dealer's commute (local dealer, his "demo" family car, he lives in town), the OLM was 38% remaining at 4,400km...My commute took that out to 3% left at 10,480km, and 12 months
My commute on this oil change hit 50% at 8,100km...will probably hit the year at 16,000km.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope, the wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of operation.
My car hardly never gets to run as long as 20 minutes - I'm wondering if it will last the year out....
LOL...the first 20 minutes is something like the next full couple of hours...that's where they get the "70% (or 85%, or 90%) of wear occurs at startup" number that's used everywhere.
Doesn't mean that short trips will kill your engine this week.
The Colorado has GM's oil life monitor....15,000km, 9 mo nominal service
Follow it with the Holden Dealer's commute (local dealer, his "demo" family car, he lives in town), the OLM was 38% remaining at 4,400km...My commute took that out to 3% left at 10,480km, and 12 months
My commute on this oil change hit 50% at 8,100km...will probably hit the year at 16,000km.
Originally Posted By: bradtech
What about all the auto-stop features they are putting on the newer cars? Do you guys foresee premature engine failures due to excessive stop/start in traffic?
I can't see how it could possibly do the engine any good. I'd be willing to bet an engine that stays on vs. one that is started and stopped several thousand more times during its lifetime will fare better. Now take an engine that is supposedly "designed" to handle start stop technology and disable it you might really have a longer lasting engine, a better battery, starter, and alternator.
Stop start would be the first thing I disable if I owned a car with it. In fact I'd probably buy the dongle to disable it and plug it in after I took title to the car and disable it on the dealers lot before driving home. I don't have the patience to turn it off every time I get in the car to drive.
After driving a friends Jeep GC equipped with it the other day I realized once again how much I couldn't stand it. There I feel better now. LOL FTR the GC was great otherwise.
OT rant off..........
What about all the auto-stop features they are putting on the newer cars? Do you guys foresee premature engine failures due to excessive stop/start in traffic?
I can't see how it could possibly do the engine any good. I'd be willing to bet an engine that stays on vs. one that is started and stopped several thousand more times during its lifetime will fare better. Now take an engine that is supposedly "designed" to handle start stop technology and disable it you might really have a longer lasting engine, a better battery, starter, and alternator.
Stop start would be the first thing I disable if I owned a car with it. In fact I'd probably buy the dongle to disable it and plug it in after I took title to the car and disable it on the dealers lot before driving home. I don't have the patience to turn it off every time I get in the car to drive.
OT rant off..........
Additives and bearing coatings (read the Mahle papers) are the neccesity in stop start.
when hot, the oil is at operating temperature, and bearing loads are essentially a line contact until speed and flow is re-established to create the oil film ....and there are many, many starts
when hot, the oil is at operating temperature, and bearing loads are essentially a line contact until speed and flow is re-established to create the oil film ....and there are many, many starts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Actually, it's funny
Stop start is clearly CAFE...it's 100% about saving a poofteenth of an MPG.
However, people argue that 0W20 and 0W16 etc. are about engine protection...
Actually, it's funny
Stop start is clearly CAFE...it's 100% about saving a poofteenth of an MPG.
However, people argue that 0W20 and 0W16 etc. are about engine protection...
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Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
I have seen large chillers , prior and during start up . Of course , they are not operating in COLD weather .
First of all , they all ( I think ) have crankcase / oil sump electric heaters . Next , the electric oil pump comes one as part of the start up sequence , and operated by what I am guessing is a timer . Then , the chiller finally starts .
Got me to thinking . What if your car engine had an electric 12 VDC oil pump which came on , say , 30 seconds ( or until an oil sensor showed positive oil pressure ) . Then the starter circuit was enabled .
Would not be unlike energizing the glow plugs on a diesel engine .
Our large diesel gen engines have pre lube pumps that run off of a battery room UPS system … these are just too expensive, and vital to not have such a setup considering they must take on load in short order …
I have seen large chillers , prior and during start up . Of course , they are not operating in COLD weather .
First of all , they all ( I think ) have crankcase / oil sump electric heaters . Next , the electric oil pump comes one as part of the start up sequence , and operated by what I am guessing is a timer . Then , the chiller finally starts .
Got me to thinking . What if your car engine had an electric 12 VDC oil pump which came on , say , 30 seconds ( or until an oil sensor showed positive oil pressure ) . Then the starter circuit was enabled .
Would not be unlike energizing the glow plugs on a diesel engine .
Our large diesel gen engines have pre lube pumps that run off of a battery room UPS system … these are just too expensive, and vital to not have such a setup considering they must take on load in short order …
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Actually, it's funny
Stop start is clearly CAFE...it's 100% about saving a poofteenth of an MPG.
However, people argue that 0W20 and 0W16 etc. are about engine protection...
To me it’s just a rental car nuisance (and challenge to dupe it) cause if I owned it that’s going to be disabled …
Also funny they put it in the cars that carry CAFE (the average) but did not annoy us with it in the big SUV …
(Yes, it has AFM … but smooth as silk so not touching that for now) …
Actually, it's funny
Stop start is clearly CAFE...it's 100% about saving a poofteenth of an MPG.
However, people argue that 0W20 and 0W16 etc. are about engine protection...
To me it’s just a rental car nuisance (and challenge to dupe it) cause if I owned it that’s going to be disabled …
Also funny they put it in the cars that carry CAFE (the average) but did not annoy us with it in the big SUV …
(Yes, it has AFM … but smooth as silk so not touching that for now) …
GM deemed it unncessary to put an option in to disable it in my Malibu. Other than tricking it not to by driving habits or down shifting into L.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bradtech
What about all the auto-stop features they are putting on the newer cars? Do you guys foresee premature engine failures due to excessive stop/start in traffic?
I can't see how it could possibly do the engine any good. I'd be willing to bet an engine that stays on vs. one that is started and stopped several thousand more times during its lifetime will fare better. Now take an engine that is supposedly "designed" to handle start stop technology and disable it you might really have a longer lasting engine, a better battery, starter, and alternator.
Stop start would be the first thing I disable if I owned a car with it. In fact I'd probably buy the dongle to disable it and plug it in after I took title to the car and disable it on the dealers lot before driving home. I don't have the patience to turn it off every time I get in the car to drive.
After driving a friends Jeep GC equipped with it the other day I realized once again how much I couldn't stand it. There I feel better now. LOL FTR the GC was great otherwise.
OT rant off..........
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: bradtech
What about all the auto-stop features they are putting on the newer cars? Do you guys foresee premature engine failures due to excessive stop/start in traffic?
I can't see how it could possibly do the engine any good. I'd be willing to bet an engine that stays on vs. one that is started and stopped several thousand more times during its lifetime will fare better. Now take an engine that is supposedly "designed" to handle start stop technology and disable it you might really have a longer lasting engine, a better battery, starter, and alternator.
Stop start would be the first thing I disable if I owned a car with it. In fact I'd probably buy the dongle to disable it and plug it in after I took title to the car and disable it on the dealers lot before driving home. I don't have the patience to turn it off every time I get in the car to drive.
OT rant off..........
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