Engine Sludge: 3 Questiosns-Update to Previous Post

[J.CARLTON]

This is an update to my previous topic, “What Should A Good Mechanic Do About Engine Sludge?” posted 7/22/04 This topic concerned my 1986 Ford Econoline E150 (4.9L, in-line 6 cyl, 155,000 miles). The mechanic did invasive work to this engine, yet neglected to take any action, including informing me, about a serious buildup of engine sludge. The sludge was so bad that just 1300 miles later, the oil pick-up tube clogged up so completely that it suddenly lost all oil pressure, damaging the engine.

If the mechanic now claims that he thoroughly cleaned the timing chain cover, the valve cover, and oil pan when replacing their respective gaskets and changed the oil, this raises 3 questions:

1. Is it possible for there to be enough sludge remaining purely in the oil passages of an engine to cause such a total and immediate clog of the oil pickup tube? (After removing the clogged pickup tube, the mechanic showed it to me. It looked like it had been dredged up from a primordial sludge pit—hard to believe after he had just 1300 miles earlier supposedly totally cleaned the oil pan and put in fresh oil!)
2. If it is possible for there to be enough sludge solely in the engine oil pathways to cause such a clock, wouldn’t there have been a correspondingly severe accumulation of sludge in the oil pan, which should have alerted the mechanic to this potentially devastating problem?
3. If # 2 is true, wouldn’t it be the responsibility of a certified mechanic to take some action, even if it were only to notify the owner of the vehicle?

Thank you for your comments and opinions

 

[friendly_jacek]

Well, would you mind letting us know how the engine accumulated so much sludge?
Oil change intervals, type of oil, any headgasket problems.
We might learn something from your experience.

 

[J.CARLTON]

In the decade or more that I have owned the van, the oil and filter have been changed on a regular basis. The van, however, was used extensively for service calls--stop and go--driving. As I understand it, city type driving can contribute to a build-up of sludge because the engine never heats up as it would during highway driving.

 

[Hirev]

I don't know the whole story. But I worked in a motor rebuild shop many years ago for a few years. I can tell you if the motor was real sludged up, the oil galleries may have severely restricted oil flow. Contributing or causing your current problem. I have seen oil galleries that had so much sludge in them they were less than 1/2 the original size. The only way to get all this out was hot tanking the block when it was rebuilt.

Would be interested in how often oil was changed? Many short trips such as driving to work 2 miles away? If a colder thermostat was used?

 

[T-Keith]

I think you know the answer to this one. As others said in the previous post. Something isn't right here.
-T

 

[Ugly3]

Very doubtful there would be enough "gunk" in the few oil passages to plug the pick up.

Maybe this is Denmark - something smells rotten!

 

[friendly_jacek]

quote:

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Originally posted by J.CARLTON:
the oil and filter have been changed on a regular basis

---

And again, what was the regular basis spelled out in miles and months?
Type of oil?

 

[SWD6]

I bought a ford tempo for $300 from a coworker. Having already owned one for almost 8 years it seemed to be a deal. This car started with no smoke and ran very smooth, till it warmed up onm the way home.. It had what sounded to me like piston slap. When i removed the rocker arm cover you couldn't even see the head bolts, it looked like dirt in there it was so thick. I changed the oil-ran it a few times and then drove it 5 miles for a safety slip. On the way to the garage the oil light started to come on when the RPM was high. Mechanic said it was just dirt in the sending unit-- I could hear the rods knocking. Removed the oil pan,replaced oil pump (it was screwd from the dirt scratches),and cleaned the pick up screen. Put 10000km on it with 15w40 oil changed every time it looked dirty and when the oil pan was removed again to check for a leak the screen was almost plugged again! I never used any cleaner or touched the sludge thinking it would stay put. I was wrong The 15w40 did make it quiet and the filters don't drain out over night with the thick stuff.

 

[tpi]

Again, most likely some of the sludge was disturbed during the repair. Even if cleaned, there are areas it can fall into which are inaccessable. Areas such as oil return holes, around valve springs, etc.

Yes he should have told you engine was severly sludged.

What damages does he owe you, what case can you make there was significant engine life left after 18 years in a heavily sludged engine? To get half the value of new engine you'd have to make the case the engine would have lasted another 18 years. The severe sludge in of itself is a strong statement of an improperly maintained engine.

Find another mechanic and move on.

[ August 18, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: tpi ]

 

[C4Dave]

When an engine sludges up, the sludge doesn't accumulate only in the oil passages, valve cover, and oil pan. It's everywhere. The only way to completely de-sludge the engine is a total rebuild. I'm sure the mechanic knew you wouldn't approve a total rebuild for $2000 or more just because the engine has sludge. So he did the next best thing. Clean up what he took off. That's what I would have done. I would have also mentioned to you that there was a lot of sludge in the engine. From what I see here, I don't see any negligence on the mechanics part.

 

[SWD6]

I agree with c4 Dave, Having owned three different Fords with the 300 six. At that many miles the motor was probably getting worn anyway. As a service man for a heating company I can also see the sludge problem. It would have been nice for the mechanic to tell you but it wouldn't change the outcome in the long run.IMO somebody at ford should be shot for putting oil filters on there side for so many years.. My tempo started plugging up with cheapo walmart 10w30 so don't blame the 15w40

 

[Gary Allan]

If the mechanic is willing to do anything for you ..take him up on it with thanks. That van has paid for itself many times in good severe duty service for 18 years. Your alternative is to pay full price somewhere else.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by C4Dave:
When an engine sludges up, the sludge doesn't accumulate only in the oil passages, valve cover, and oil pan. It's everywhere. The only way to completely de-sludge the engine is a total rebuild. I'm sure the mechanic knew you wouldn't approve a total rebuild for $2000 or more just because the engine has sludge. So he did the next best thing. Clean up what he took off. That's what I would have done. I would have also mentioned to you that there was a lot of sludge in the engine. From what I see here, I don't see any negligence on the mechanics part.

---

I agree with C4Dave. From the mechanics perspective, he sees a 1986 Van with 155K miles of what looks like poor maintenance because of all of the sludge he removed. Even good mechanics can't always make up for poor maintenance or abuse.

And why didn't you notice sludge building up in your engine? Even on my vehicles that have had 150K+ miles on them, I could open the oil filler and see clean shiny metal. But than again, I use synths, change oil/filters according to the environment the vehicle has to perform in. Maybe you need to step up your maintenance regimen in the future?

 

[J.CARLTON]

quote:

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Originally posted by friendly_jacek:

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.CARLTON:
the oil and filter have been changed on a regular basis

---

And again, what was the regular basis spelled out in miles and months?
Type of oil?

---

The oil was changed on average about every 4-5k miles. I think we generally used 10w30 and during the hotter months 10w40.

 

[J.CARLTON]

The van was taken to the shop for oil leaks. The mechanic replaced the timing chain cover and gasket, the valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket and changed the oil. (The repair also included a couple motor mounts, a fuel sending unit, water pump and some belts)

Having already invested over $1000 on this repair for the van, I went ahead and had the oil pump and clogged pickup tube replaced as recommended by the mechanic. The van runs but has a knock, and is now slowing leaking transmission fluid from the area where the engine meets the transmission. The mechanic claims that this has nothing to do with his repair job - who knows...