Engine running-ninivan won't move

[callbay]

2003 Ford Windstar. 86,000 miles. Transmission fluid had been changed at least once and looks good and does not smell burned.Trans number on the pan is AX4N.

Driving on the highway the engine reved up and the van stopped getting power to the wheels even though the engine still running.

I ran it at idle till the engine was well warmed up but the trans flid did not warm at all. It shows overfill on the dipstick by possibly three quarts or so, Level did not change after running at idle.

What would be the problem?

Thanks a lot.

 

[Donald]

It does not sound good. Tow it to a decent transmission shop.

 

[Clevy]

Those transmissions are notorious for failure. It just happens without warning sometimes.
I've got one in the back of my truck for your van if you want it. Shipping may be expensive however this transmission isn't defective.
Message me if your interested

 

[Clevy]

Do a google search on those transmissions. They are hit and miss. Apparently the issue presents itself at on or before 100000 miles. Cost to fix can be upwards of 1000 or more.
I've got one from an 01. Van had 200000 kms on it so this one doesn't have the issue. I've been holding onto it in case I had a friend who needed it however it's collecting dust in the back of my chevy in my garage right now so I'd let it go for a few hundred. Freight shipping may be another couple hundred.
So when you take it in keep that in the back of your mind once they figure out what cost to fix is

 

[Mud]

Internet guess

the high fluid level and complete lack of drive to me points to possible pump failure.
If I remember right, the fluid level in that automatic is taken with engine running, meaning that the pump is also working and pressurizing the torque converter and valve body. This results in fluid being drawn from the pan. When the fluid level is taken with engine off the level will be high as you noted due to the converter draining back into the pan.
"Usually" if a converter fails you get some noise from broken internal vanes or a thrust bearing, but you didn't mention any noise.
Line pressure from the pump is controlled by a solenoid, not sure if the solenoid failing could cause such a dramatic no-run condition.
Would be curious to know what the diagnosis is...

 

[Texan4Life]

either the trans went toes up or for some reason the pump lost suction. maybe the filter wasnt installed properly and fell off, ect.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

If it truely has the AX4N transmission - those were a bit better reliability wise than the AX4S/AXOD ... they didn't have the clutch piston failures that the AXOD/AX4S had.

Sounds like pump failure?

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
either the trans went toes up or for some reason the pump lost suction. maybe the filter wasnt installed properly and fell off, ect.


Yep, that's been a phenomena of the AX4N for sure. Poor filter installation, doubled up O-rings, etc.. Usually that resulted in just weird shifting though.

FWIW, Windstars from 2001+ had much better AX4N's than the earlier Winnys. Supposedly the best of the AX4N's if you want to call it that.

Joel

 

[jjcom]

First thought sounds like a broken input shaft. That would leave everything dead in the water like that and I believe also would give you the false overfull reading on the dipstick. Sounds like it's time to pick a transmission shop.

 

[UNC017]

Sure sounds like a pump or pump drive failure to me. I know on some transmissions the tangs that drive the pump off the torque convertor snout sometimes shear off. Total loss of drive due to no hydraulic pressure.

 

[NHGUY]

Geez,and I thought it was just Chrysler 41TE transmissions that had a bad rap...

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Geez,and I thought it was just Chrysler 41TE transmissions that had a bad rap...


Ford auto transmissions are just as bad as Chrysler ones.

 

[01rangerxl]

I may be wrong, but I think Ford recalled these a couple years ago (2009, 2010?) due to torque converter failures? I think it was an actual recall, not a TSB.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Geez,and I thought it was just Chrysler 41TE transmissions that had a bad rap...


Ford auto transmissions are just as bad as Chrysler ones.


FWD? Yes. RWD? No. At least not historically. Though I'd say the newer Chrysler ones (like the ones from the Challenger and stuff) are better than anything that came before them.

 

[wiswind]

Fluid reading the same at Idle as when the engine is not running points to no fluid being pumped.

The "double 'O' ring" comment refers to the gasket that is on the neck of the transmission filter that is in the transmission pan.
You have to remove the transmission pan to access the filter.
It is normal for the 'O' ring filter on the neck of the old filter to stay stuck in the transmission when the old filter is pulled down and out.
This prevents the new filter neck from inserting up in fully...resulting in the opportunity for air to be drawn in instead of fluid.
However, as the dipstick is showing the unit as being significantly overfull.....it is unlikely that this is the problem.
It would point more to broken pump shaft, etc

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Geez,and I thought it was just Chrysler 41TE transmissions that had a bad rap...


Ford auto transmissions are just as bad as Chrysler ones.


And the Honda Odyssey is probably the worst of the lot now. The Sienna went through a bad transmission stretch also, IIRC. They take turns making bad minivan transmissions. Chrysler finally got the xxTE series relatively solid- but it and frankly ALL FWD minivan transmissions are still overworked and undersized in today's porky minivans that way as much as a 1980 full-size van did.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Geez,and I thought it was just Chrysler 41TE transmissions that had a bad rap...


Ford auto transmissions are just as bad as Chrysler ones.


FWD? Yes. RWD? No. At least not historically. Though I'd say the newer Chrysler ones (like the ones from the Challenger and stuff) are better than anything that came before them.


Chrysler only ever really made one TRULY bad transmission family: the 41TE and (to a lesser degree) the 42LE that was closely related. Unfortunately, they sold SO many of them and took SO long to finally fix all the bugs that the myth of "Chrysler transmissions suck" was firmly entrenched in the public mindset.

In truth, The 4xRH series used in trucks from the early 90s to early 2000s had few minor glitches, mostly related to the OD section. The first 3 gears in those came from the old A727 section and were basically bulletproof. I'd say they were generally comparable to the Ford AOD/4R70 series from the same era. Not flawless, but not a disaster either. We've run one of them out to >200k miles with not even enough routine maintenance, and another to >150k (so far) without issue.

The current crop is quite good, especially the rear-drives. As you said, the NAG1 in the v8 Challenger/Charger/300 is excellent. So is the new 8-speed ZF8HP in the v6 Charger/Challenger/300. And the 545RFE has been doing great in the light to medium duty trucks. The 65RFE behind the Cummins has a lot of work to do... but seems to be doing it reasonably well unless the owner chips the Cummins up to some obscene frame-twisting torque. And the Aisin used in chassis-cabs behind the Cummins is pretty much a rock, and has a long history in Japanese cab-over-engine box trucks.

When you get right down to it... MOST transmission problems on the road today, and for the last 20 years, occur in minivans. One reason I stay away from the darn things.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Geez,and I thought it was just Chrysler 41TE transmissions that had a bad rap...


Ford auto transmissions are just as bad as Chrysler ones.


FWD? Yes. RWD? No. At least not historically. Though I'd say the newer Chrysler ones (like the ones from the Challenger and stuff) are better than anything that came before them.


Chrysler only ever really made one TRULY bad transmission family: the 41TE and (to a lesser degree) the 42LE that was closely related. Unfortunately, they sold SO many of them and took SO long to finally fix all the bugs that the myth of "Chrysler transmissions suck" was firmly entrenched in the public mindset.

In truth, The 4xRH series used in trucks from the early 90s to early 2000s had few minor glitches, mostly related to the OD section. The first 3 gears in those came from the old A727 section and were basically bulletproof. I'd say they were generally comparable to the Ford AOD/4R70 series from the same era. Not flawless, but not a disaster either. We've run one of them out to >200k miles with not even enough routine maintenance, and another to >150k (so far) without issue.

The current crop is quite good, especially the rear-drives. As you said, the NAG1 in the v8 Challenger/Charger/300 is excellent. So is the new 8-speed ZF8HP in the v6 Charger/Challenger/300. And the 545RFE has been doing great in the light to medium duty trucks. The 65RFE behind the Cummins has a lot of work to do... but seems to be doing it reasonably well unless the owner chips the Cummins up to some obscene frame-twisting torque. And the Aisin used in chassis-cabs behind the Cummins is pretty much a rock, and has a long history in Japanese cab-over-engine box trucks.

When you get right down to it... MOST transmission problems on the road today, and for the last 20 years, occur in minivans. One reason I stay away from the darn things.


So very true

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Chrysler only ever really made one TRULY bad transmission family: the 41TE and (to a lesser degree) the 42LE that was closely related. Unfortunately, they sold SO many of them and took SO long to finally fix all the bugs that the myth of "Chrysler transmissions suck" was firmly entrenched in the public mindset.

In truth, The 4xRH series used in trucks from the early 90s to early 2000s had few minor glitches, mostly related to the OD section. The first 3 gears in those came from the old A727 section and were basically bulletproof. I'd say they were generally comparable to the Ford AOD/4R70 series from the same era. Not flawless, but not a disaster either. We've run one of them out to >200k miles with not even enough routine maintenance, and another to >150k (so far) without issue.

The current crop is quite good, especially the rear-drives. As you said, the NAG1 in the v8 Challenger/Charger/300 is excellent. So is the new 8-speed ZF8HP in the v6 Charger/Challenger/300. And the 545RFE has been doing great in the light to medium duty trucks. The 65RFE behind the Cummins has a lot of work to do... but seems to be doing it reasonably well unless the owner chips the Cummins up to some obscene frame-twisting torque. And the Aisin used in chassis-cabs behind the Cummins is pretty much a rock, and has a long history in Japanese cab-over-engine box trucks.

When you get right down to it... MOST transmission problems on the road today, and for the last 20 years, occur in minivans. One reason I stay away from the darn things.


Agreed. My Chrysler 46RE is commonly regarded as a piece of [censored]. However, as long as the TV cable isn't adjusted loose, the fluid is kept clean and it's cooled well enough, they're pretty durable.

Mine has just under 144k on it now, I added a big cooler at 102k, shortly after I bought the Jeep. I did the heads/cam on the engine at 119k and put a shift kit in the trans at 120k for a bit of safety margin when coping with the extra power (still at stock line pressure, but I might bump that up a little next time I drop the pan). With the shift kit, even with this mileage and probably 80hp more than stock going through it, it shifts better than most autos. It's a little sloppy with cold fluid, but once it warms up a bit, it's nice and firm, shifts quickly and will bark the tires when it grabs 2nd under heavy throttle.

I don't quite understand the people that kill 2 or 3 of them before 100k. They're probably working them way too hard without enough cooling or something.

The only time I've ever worried about mine (I haven't put a temp gauge on it yet) was when I was pulling another Jeep on a trailer (6500 trailer weight, about 11,300 combined). Standing on the throttle for 15 seconds or so with tons of converter slip to get up to highway speed was a little nerve wracking (and done with the e-fan forced to high speed). Heck, since the valve body swap (bored out hole for OD cooling/lube flow), I've even committed the cardinal sin of towing in OD (it's got enough torque to handle flat ground and mild hills with a 2500lb trailer without downshifting).

 

[HM12460]

To the best of my knowledge there isn't a mini van made that is worth buying.