Engine Misfire and OMG Bosch plugs as OE in a GM!

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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
sounds like another case of bean counters ruining a good car by going with the low bidder!


I was actually thinking that since the Direct Injection is partly Bosch , perhaps allowing Bosch to "tune" and provide the spark plugs was all part of the deal.

...or Direct Injection is harder on spark plugs. I've had a 2005 CTS (no DI then) in the past that didn't need plugs until 75k miles.

One other "note" to add...the spark plug that was in the cylinder that was missing showed .59 gap versus the stock gap of .43...it also looked like the little platinum "pad" that is on the ground electrode was missing - allowing a wider gap and more wear. I think I read once on BITOG about other AC Delco plugs losing their little platinum tip.
 
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Don't blame the spark plugs for they've done their jobs(and job done well). Consider this: different engine designs creates a different, if not equally difficult/harsh environments for the spark plugs to operate in. Especially when engine management is faulty (the pressure waves created by detonation inside an engine can be serious enough to knock off some spark plug ceramic insulators), folks who constantly adds OTC additives (stoddard solvents? UCL properties?! AshTeePea fi cleaners (with kero inside)? which makes the plugs work harder.

You should learn to admire how well modern metallurgy has been RE: spark plug developments and then you will not feel the same way RE: my CTS plugs lasted
Q.

To all others: copper plugs are not pure "copper" all the way to the electrodes, nor is the general "copper" plugs made of steel. Their electrodes are made of nickel alloy and only nickel can withstand such harsh operational environment and yet resists erosion (to provide sufficient service life) and still get the job done right.
 
When the Bosch +4 plugs came out, I figured they were worth trying in my truck (5.0 TBI). They worked great until I decided to replace them at 60k miles.

Who knows.
 
Originally Posted By: Quest
Don't blame the spark plugs for they've done their jobs(and job done well). Consider this: different engine designs creates a different, if not equally difficult/harsh environments for the spark plugs to operate in. Especially when engine management is faulty (the pressure waves created by detonation inside an engine can be serious enough to knock off some spark plug ceramic insulators), folks who constantly adds OTC additives (stoddard solvents? UCL properties?! AshTeePea fi cleaners (with kero inside)? which makes the plugs work harder.

You should learn to admire how well modern metallurgy has been RE: spark plug developments and then you will not feel the same way RE: my CTS plugs lasted
Q.

To all others: copper plugs are not pure "copper" all the way to the electrodes, nor is the general "copper" plugs made of steel. Their electrodes are made of nickel alloy and only nickel can withstand such harsh operational environment and yet resists erosion (to provide sufficient service life) and still get the job done right.




I see your point about the plugs - however my complaint is that they are listed as 100k mile change interval which they DID NOT make it to. Making it to 50k miles is unnacceptable. I can see 70-80k miles but not 50k for my car and 47k for my Dad's. I have seen other AC Delco plugs made by NGK for example make it to 80-100+k miles.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mau
Should have gone with Iridium and checked in another 50-60K to see if both cars have the same issue.

It would be the perfect test.



I wanted to put Autolite Iridium XP's in my car but they only had 4 in stock at the time, so I went with the Autolite double platinum. The OEM AC Delco (BOSCH) plug was double platinum. When I did my Dad's he requested that I use the same plugs in his car that I used in mine.

That sure would have been a good test, though!!
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: Quest
Don't blame the spark plugs for they've done their jobs(and job done well). Consider this: different engine designs creates a different, if not equally difficult/harsh environments for the spark plugs to operate in. Especially when engine management is faulty (the pressure waves created by detonation inside an engine can be serious enough to knock off some spark plug ceramic insulators), folks who constantly adds OTC additives (stoddard solvents? UCL properties?! AshTeePea fi cleaners (with kero inside)? which makes the plugs work harder.

You should learn to admire how well modern metallurgy has been RE: spark plug developments and then you will not feel the same way RE: my CTS plugs lasted
Q.

To all others: copper plugs are not pure "copper" all the way to the electrodes, nor is the general "copper" plugs made of steel. Their electrodes are made of nickel alloy and only nickel can withstand such harsh operational environment and yet resists erosion (to provide sufficient service life) and still get the job done right.




I see your point about the plugs - however my complaint is that they are listed as 100k mile change interval which they DID NOT make it to. Making it to 50k miles is unnacceptable. I can see 70-80k miles but not 50k for my car and 47k for my Dad's. I have seen other AC Delco plugs made by NGK for example make it to 80-100+k miles.


I wonder if the plug change interval on these DI motors is going to be "revised" like the software for the OLM? They seem to be harder on things than the manufacturers initially gave them credit for.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy




I see your point about the plugs - however my complaint is that they are listed as 100k mile change interval which they DID NOT make it to. Making it to 50k miles is unnacceptable. I can see 70-80k miles but not 50k for my car and 47k for my Dad's. I have seen other AC Delco plugs made by NGK for example make it to 80-100+k miles.


The service intervals that manufacturers give are a LOT of marketing and little substance.

This continued NGK push is pretty amusing, I've seen issues with all brands including NGK. I'm sure there is anecdotal evidence for the opposite experience of yours too.
 
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Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: GMBoy




I see your point about the plugs - however my complaint is that they are listed as 100k mile change interval which they DID NOT make it to. Making it to 50k miles is unnacceptable. I can see 70-80k miles but not 50k for my car and 47k for my Dad's. I have seen other AC Delco plugs made by NGK for example make it to 80-100+k miles.


The service intervals that manufacturers give are a LOT of marketing and little substance.

This continued NGK push is pretty amusing, I've seen issues with all brands including NGK. I'm sure there is anecdotal evidence for the opposite experience of yours too.



I agree with your post entirely. I am not an NGK fanboy, I was just comparing know example I had seen. I personnally use mostly Autolite plugs and I don't believe in running a plug 100k miles. Even if my plugs had not failed, I was looking to change them around 60k miles. Cheap and easy to do.
 
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50k is pretty weak for OE plugs these days. Even the platinums in my mother's '99 Sunfire were perfect at 60k and pretty good when I changed them at 90k. But I replaced them with NGK platinums that were far worse after 60k than the OE plugs were at 90k. I'm trying Champions now. I probably should have just gone with the OEM plug, but I didn't expect to actually be changing them at that inspection interval and the dealership wasn't open.

Bill in Utah's OE NGKs were still good in his Corolla at 127k:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1379334
 
Originally Posted By: rpn453
50k is pretty weak for OE plugs these days. Even the platinums in my mother's '99 Sunfire were perfect at 60k and pretty good when I changed them at 90k. But I replaced them with NGK platinums that were far worse after 60k than the OE plugs were at 90k. I'm trying Champions now. I probably should have just gone with the OEM plug, but I didn't expect to actually be changing them at that inspection interval and the dealership wasn't open.

Bill in Utah's OE NGKs were still good in his Corolla at 127k:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1379334


Yes, but neither of those engines are DI.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yes, but neither of those engines are DI.


Regardless of engine design, I think it's unusual to have OE plugs that can't make it to the manufacturer's recommended interval.

I also figured I'd provide George with a couple of NGK examples on both ends of the spectrum.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy



If I went to the dealer you know it would be an all day affair and then they would only replace the ONE bad plug under warranty so I would be doing the rest anyway.

Again - another example of 100k plugs not making the distance.


Are you serious? They would replace just the one bad plug?
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4

Are you serious? They would replace just the one bad plug?


It's not uncommon to see dealerships replacing 1 faulty spark plugs instead of the whole set. In their minds: they just fix/replace "a" problem but doesn't care about going the extra mile.

Like if 1 of our front/rear struts fail under warranty, typical dealerships would just replace 1 and not to follow the "replace in pairs" practice.

@OP: I'd pull the rest of the spark plugs (post dealership servicing) to inspect and replace them all if possible. I personally prefer to deal with a fresh set of plugs than playing with mixed set.

Q.
 
Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Yes, but neither of those engines are DI.


Regardless of engine design, I think it's unusual to have OE plugs that can't make it to the manufacturer's recommended interval.

I also figured I'd provide George with a couple of NGK examples on both ends of the spectrum.


But the same happened with the OLM on the DI engines. GM was optimistic with the OCI, and then later revised the programming, significantly shortening the interval.

My line of thought is that an 11.3:1 direct injected engine is harder on plugs than an old 9:1 port injected one.
 
Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4

Are you serious? They would replace just the one bad plug?


It's not uncommon to see dealerships replacing 1 faulty spark plugs instead of the whole set. In their minds: they just fix/replace "a" problem but doesn't care about going the extra mile.

Like if 1 of our front/rear struts fail under warranty, typical dealerships would just replace 1 and not to follow the "replace in pairs" practice.

@OP: I'd pull the rest of the spark plugs (post dealership servicing) to inspect and replace them all if possible. I personally prefer to deal with a fresh set of plugs than playing with mixed set.Q.



I agree, as I stated in the post, I replaced them all on both cars myself. No dealer visit.
 
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Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4

Are you serious? They would replace just the one bad plug?


It's not uncommon to see dealerships replacing 1 faulty spark plugs instead of the whole set. In their minds: they just fix/replace "a" problem but doesn't care about going the extra mile.

Like if 1 of our front/rear struts fail under warranty, typical dealerships would just replace 1 and not to follow the "replace in pairs" practice.

@OP: I'd pull the rest of the spark plugs (post dealership servicing) to inspect and replace them all if possible. I personally prefer to deal with a fresh set of plugs than playing with mixed set.

Q.



Actually, I bet they would have covered the one bad plug under warranty and then tried to sell me the rest of the tune-up.
 
That's the whole plus of DI, radical compression improves efficiency. I still can't see the connection between a bit of compression and plug life.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
[I agree, as I stated in the post, I replaced them all on both cars myself. No dealer visit.


Wise move, very wise.

Q.
 
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