Engine damage caused by fuel system cleaners

[Terry]

Fuel adds that are low flash, lack lubricity can damage softer metals and polymers in the fuel system.

Periodic use of even the cheap additives will lighten the wallet and increase the soft metals readings in oil analysis but I doubt are terribly harmful.

Fuel Power is a safe and lubricous fuel add. The combination of bench testing and ongoing oil testing has proven that to me and my customers.

Even when used in engines that are diluting excessively FP60 has not shown the propensity to increase the elemental wear values I described above ,that many have seen with other more aggressive fuel adds.

 

[Kestas]

I once worked at a lab at Ford Mo Co that evaluated different fuel system treatments. I asked them about it hoping to find the brand with the most efficacy. They told me they don't check it for cleaning power, they just make sure it doesn't harm any of the components in the system.

 

[LarryL]

Does anyone use fuel system cleaners on a regular basis, ie every tank full? Some products say treats up to 180 gallons, add 1/3 oz per gallon every fillup or something like that.

I still wonder how consistant gas stations can be with the advertised additives in gasoline. The gas comes from common pipe lines, tanks and trucks. It just seems to me that if someone can screw up the mix, they will.

I did a valve job on a 78 Toyota pickup at 150k miles and the head and valves had no hard deposits and what was there wiped off with a rag, no scraping. This pickup got a bottle of Chevron ProGuard every oil change. The oil change interval depended on my wife's car, because that car got it's oil changed every 5k miles with 10w-40 Red Line. The used Red Line went into the pickup, along with a new filter. It's my version of an extended oil change interval. So, it appears that using a whole bottle worked. I was just wondering if I should put in a little bit, every tank?

 

[kang]

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
We used too much of assorted fuel system cleaners on my son's old Pathfinder trying to clean the injectors without pulling them. We still had to replace one injector and not long after the fuel pressure regulator failed. It may have been coincidental but I decided the excessive use of cleaners was the cause...

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Did you use the fuel system cleaners per the instructions, e.g. one can per tank of gas, or were you putting it right in the fuel rail or using higher doses or something?

Did you crack open the pressure regulator to see how it failed?

Thanks...

 

[kang]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:
Fuel adds that are low flash, lack lubricity can damage softer metals and polymers in the fuel system.

Periodic use of even the cheap additives will lighten the wallet and increase the soft metals readings in oil analysis but I doubt are terribly harmful.

Fuel Power is a safe and lubricous fuel add. The combination of bench testing and ongoing oil testing has proven that to me and my customers.

Even when used in engines that are diluting excessively FP60 has not shown the propensity to increase the elemental wear values I described above ,that many have seen with other more aggressive fuel adds.

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Hi Terry,

Thanks, that is good information. I have a couple questions about your comments.

You mention additives that are low flash being potentially harmful. Is this because they get into the oil and then don’t evaporate off? So they stay there and lessen the lubricity of the oil or wash the oil film off surfaces?

You also mention soft metals. This makes me think bronze, etc. I’m thinking valve stems and guides here, off the top of my head. Anything else? I can’t think of any soft metals within the normal path of fuel, so this makes me think that the soft metals are getting hit from additives that make it past the normal path of fuel and get into the oil. Is this what you meant?

You mention lubricity a couple of times. Do you mean that the additional lubricity of certain additives is a good thing, like lubing injectors, or that the lubricity of these cleaners makes up for the loss of lubricity due to the cleaner getting into the oil and weakening it?

You also mention engines that are diluting excessively. By this do you mean additives getting past the rings and diluting the oil? Would the lubricity of the additive make up for the diluted oil?

Finally, I hope you don’t mind me asking this question. I don’t mean any disrespect. Are you connected with Fuel Power somehow? Perhaps through this site (I notice you are both sponsors)? Or perhaps some other way?

Thanks for your time.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by kang:

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
We used too much of assorted fuel system cleaners on my son's old Pathfinder trying to clean the injectors without pulling them. We still had to replace one injector and not long after the fuel pressure regulator failed. It may have been coincidental but I decided the excessive use of cleaners was the cause...

---

Did you use the fuel system cleaners per the instructions, e.g. one can per tank of gas, or were you putting it right in the fuel rail or using higher doses or something?

Did you crack open the pressure regulator to see how it failed?

Thanks...

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The truck was throttle body injected so there was no fuel rail. We used the recommended dosages in the tank. I didn't tear the regulator apart when we replaced it but it had a couple of fairly large chunks of rubber in the outlet port so I assume the diaphram failed...

 

[Terry]

kang, I am associated with LC/FP as I am a hired testing source for them like Auto-Rx. I do not normally comment publicly about all the products or projects I work on or for, nor am I allowed to.

I liked LC/FP and Auto-RX so much I have publicly gone out on a limb for them.

For instance when Conoco and Pennzoil jointly began using Chevrons Hydrocracking technology in lubricants I posted the good results we saw in testing the Concoco "hydroclear" lubes, that was 6 +years ago. Now that base oil technology is a near standard in the automotive lubes industry. Group II oils are used more now than GrpI in good quality petroleum engine lubes to name a few.

I have recently done proprietary testing for Molakules Specialty Formulations products too and have mentioned them here publicly.

Nice thing about being a independent hired Gun is that I can talk about what I do as long as I do not breach any secrecy or proprietary agreements. Something you will never get from a chemist,engineer,tribologist that works for a producing company. When I comment here about a product or result it is because I have seen it in action. It does not mean I want you to go out and buy it. I really don't care because I get my renumeration up front normally.


"You mention additives that are low flash being potentially harmful."

They can wash away films or polymerize the host oils, or chemically react with the oiland or its adds or with the fuel delivery system. Or most likely the low flash formulas cook off so fast they do nothing but leave new deposits for the engine to deal with.

"You also mention soft metals. This makes me think bronze, etc." Could be metals or coatings on fuels side, or if the fuel is diluting the oil attacking the copper,tin,lead,aluminum,components, usually bearing materials.

"You mention lubricity a couple of times. Do you mean that the additional lubricity of certain additives is a good thing, like lubing injectors, or that the lubricity of these cleaners makes up for the loss of lubricity due to the cleaner getting into the oil and weakening it?"

The chemistry of any additive that is designed to "clean" must either be inhibited or have inherent lubricity or it can damage the component it is supposed to restore.


"You also mention engines that are diluting excessively. By this do you mean additives getting past the rings and diluting the oil?"


Fuels getting past the rings and valve guides or valves themselves.By extension the fuel adds.

"Would the lubricity of the additive make up for the diluted oil? "

Not normally. If fuel dilution is a issue no fuel add is going to compensate for that but I will say FP60 is amazing in that in a engine that is diluting it does not damage the way many others do.

Hope that clears things a bit. Use our analysis service and I will spend the time to apply what I see in testing to YOUR machine and not talk about theoretical or possibilites !

Terry

 

[kang]

Hi Terry,

I appreciate the open and honest answer.

I’ve considered oil analysis, but haven’t completely convinced myself its worth the time and money. Regular oil changes and proper maintenance have always done the trick for me.

 

[LarryL]

Does anyone use fuel system cleaners or fuel additives on a regular basis, ie every tank full? Some products say treats up to 180 gallons, add 1/3 oz per gallon every fillup or something like that.

 

[kang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsharp:
We used too much of assorted fuel system cleaners on my son's old Pathfinder trying to clean the injectors without pulling them. We still had to replace one injector and not long after the fuel pressure regulator failed. It may have been coincidental but I decided the excessive use of cleaners was the cause...

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Can I ask how much was “too much?” How many treatments did you use, at what dosage, and over what time span? If you don’t mind, what brands did you use? How many miles on the Pathfinder at the time?

Thanks.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by kang:

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
We used too much of assorted fuel system cleaners on my son's old Pathfinder trying to clean the injectors without pulling them. We still had to replace one injector and not long after the fuel pressure regulator failed. It may have been coincidental but I decided the excessive use of cleaners was the cause...

---

Can I ask how much was “too much?” How many treatments did you use, at what dosage, and over what time span? If you don’t mind, what brands did you use? How many miles on the Pathfinder at the time?

Thanks.

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The truck had almost 200K miles on it when we did this but both injectors had been replaced before. They couldn't have had 50K miles prior use. The dosage may have been slightly excessive but not 2X the common treatment rate. It's been a couple of years, but I remember using some of the Gunk brand on two or three occasions and at least one other brand all in about a 1 month period. Maybe a couple thousand miles tops.

It may have just been coincidence, but I'm more careful now...

 

[kang]

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
The truck had almost 200K miles on it when we did this but both injectors had been replaced before. They couldn't have had 50K miles prior use. The dosage may have been slightly excessive but not 2X the common treatment rate. It's been a couple of years, but I remember using some of the Gunk brand on two or three occasions and at least one other brand all in about a 1 month period. Maybe a couple thousand miles tops.

It may have just been coincidence, but I'm more careful now...

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Having a fuel pressure regulator fail after 200K miles doesn’t seem that unusual to me. I don’t know that I’d blame that one on the cleaners. The injectors that failed after 50k miles is another issue. But perhaps some of the diaphragm from the failing pressure regulator got into them and caused the failure?

Thanks for the info.