Electric Vehicle Innovation
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It doesn't matter how many electric vehicles get sold. They have to be sold at a PROFIT. Therein lies the problem they can't seem to overcome. Companies cannot exist indefinitely on government subsidies. Internal combustion powered vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/05/technology/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars/index.html
"But eliminating the gas engine altogether will be difficult, if not impossible. The first reason is profitability. The stock of tiny Tesla (TSLA) may be worth more than either General Motors (GM) or Ford (F), but it has yet to report an annual profit. Traditional automakers are making billions of dollars selling millions of gasoline-powered cars each. No one has yet figured out a way to make a profit selling electric-only vehicles."
https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/05/technology/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars/index.html
"But eliminating the gas engine altogether will be difficult, if not impossible. The first reason is profitability. The stock of tiny Tesla (TSLA) may be worth more than either General Motors (GM) or Ford (F), but it has yet to report an annual profit. Traditional automakers are making billions of dollars selling millions of gasoline-powered cars each. No one has yet figured out a way to make a profit selling electric-only vehicles."
Originally Posted by billt460
It doesn't matter how many electric vehicles get sold. They have to be sold at a PROFIT. Therein lies the problem they can't seem to overcome. Companies cannot exist indefinitely on government subsidies. Internal combustion powered vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/05/technology/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars/index.html
"But eliminating the gas engine altogether will be difficult, if not impossible. The first reason is profitability. The stock of tiny Tesla (TSLA) may be worth more than either General Motors (GM) or Ford (F), but it has yet to report an annual profit. Traditional automakers are making billions of dollars selling millions of gasoline-powered cars each. No one has yet figured out a way to make a profit selling electric-only vehicles."
Yep .
It doesn't matter how many electric vehicles get sold. They have to be sold at a PROFIT. Therein lies the problem they can't seem to overcome. Companies cannot exist indefinitely on government subsidies. Internal combustion powered vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/05/technology/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars/index.html
"But eliminating the gas engine altogether will be difficult, if not impossible. The first reason is profitability. The stock of tiny Tesla (TSLA) may be worth more than either General Motors (GM) or Ford (F), but it has yet to report an annual profit. Traditional automakers are making billions of dollars selling millions of gasoline-powered cars each. No one has yet figured out a way to make a profit selling electric-only vehicles."
Yep .
Originally Posted by billt460
Internal combustion powered vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
This is key to profitability.
The first step is user acceptance. Tesla did that: The right car, at the right price, being sold to the right customers. Once customers accept that an EV can replace their current vehicle (which they totally can), they'll buy them.
So Tesla proved that EVs can sell. What Tesla doesn't have is scale. When you compare Tesla to Ford or VW, Tesla needs to spend big dollars to not only develop new vehicles, but also manufacturer them. Engineering a vehicle is only half of the battle. Engineering the manufacturing process is just as difficult.
A legacy automaker already has those two things figured out. Look at the Porsche Taycan. They leveraged the VW platform underpinning the Panamera and a couple Bently's. It's important to note that these are ICE vehicles. By spreading the development and manufacturing cost between ICEs and EVs, it's much easier to drive toward to a profitable EV.
Now, compare Rivian or Bollinger, who both have an EV full size truck in the works, to Ford. Ford is just going to use the underpinning of the F150 and the existing manufacturing for their EV full size. The other two have to develop an entire platform and figure out how to manufacturer it. Which one has a clearer path to profitability?
ICEs aren't going anywhere soon and they will be key to leveraging EV profitability.
Internal combustion powered vehicles aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
This is key to profitability.
The first step is user acceptance. Tesla did that: The right car, at the right price, being sold to the right customers. Once customers accept that an EV can replace their current vehicle (which they totally can), they'll buy them.
So Tesla proved that EVs can sell. What Tesla doesn't have is scale. When you compare Tesla to Ford or VW, Tesla needs to spend big dollars to not only develop new vehicles, but also manufacturer them. Engineering a vehicle is only half of the battle. Engineering the manufacturing process is just as difficult.
A legacy automaker already has those two things figured out. Look at the Porsche Taycan. They leveraged the VW platform underpinning the Panamera and a couple Bently's. It's important to note that these are ICE vehicles. By spreading the development and manufacturing cost between ICEs and EVs, it's much easier to drive toward to a profitable EV.
Now, compare Rivian or Bollinger, who both have an EV full size truck in the works, to Ford. Ford is just going to use the underpinning of the F150 and the existing manufacturing for their EV full size. The other two have to develop an entire platform and figure out how to manufacturer it. Which one has a clearer path to profitability?
ICEs aren't going anywhere soon and they will be key to leveraging EV profitability.
Originally Posted by MrHorspwer
The first step is user acceptance. Tesla did that: The right car, at the right price, being sold to the right customers.
It's obviously not, "at the right price", if they can't turn a profit selling it. They've proven for years they can't.
The first step is user acceptance. Tesla did that: The right car, at the right price, being sold to the right customers.
It's obviously not, "at the right price", if they can't turn a profit selling it. They've proven for years they can't.
If oil reaches 400 or 500 a barrel ? I dont know....it seems like the cost of home energy would also rise to the point where plug-ins will never make electrics feasable. Then there is the cost of replacing worn out batteries.
Thanks for the wiki page link. It's rather informative. Despite the wild claims of improved range, none of the listings have enough range to be truly affordable and practical cars.
There won't be a "battery breakthrough" and EV's are a de-facto travel restriction.
There won't be a "battery breakthrough" and EV's are a de-facto travel restriction.
Originally Posted by saginawmale50
If oil reaches 400 or 500 a barrel ? I dont know....
Not going to happen any time soon, as soon as the price gets over about 150, producers crank up to cash in. The supply is still plentiful despite claims to the contrary.
Originally Posted by Cujet
none of the listings have enough range to be truly affordable and practical cars. ... EV's are a de-facto travel restriction.
Exactly, and you have to take into account the range in real world conditions. I'd enjoy one but I'd also have to have a reliable gas car for any trip over about 200 miles, and the prices are still far too high to be practical, yet still not high enough for the manufacturer to make money.
If oil reaches 400 or 500 a barrel ? I dont know....
Not going to happen any time soon, as soon as the price gets over about 150, producers crank up to cash in. The supply is still plentiful despite claims to the contrary.
Originally Posted by Cujet
none of the listings have enough range to be truly affordable and practical cars. ... EV's are a de-facto travel restriction.
Exactly, and you have to take into account the range in real world conditions. I'd enjoy one but I'd also have to have a reliable gas car for any trip over about 200 miles, and the prices are still far too high to be practical, yet still not high enough for the manufacturer to make money.
My 1981 Comutacar EV was sold at a profit and was only discontinued because the government kept forcing charges to the cars design every 3 months and the company owner eventually gave up over several years of interface.
An EV is actually extremely simple, sadly consumer tastes drive 2 tons of expensive batteries into the design.
An EV is actually extremely simple, sadly consumer tastes drive 2 tons of expensive batteries into the design.
There will be many battery innovations and heat pump innovations for cabin heat to make the ev more and more practical. Manufacturing will get better. Some people will buy ev's, some won't, it's their choice. All is primitive next to feeding a horse a bucket of oats and water and off it runs all by itself, thinking.
As usual the problem is and rarely if at all reported is the electric grid. For example California seems to to be able to with stand the increased electricity use on a hot day. California 's utilities could be fooling the easy to fool but still,,,, Electric vehicles can be great city cars. Electric cars move the pollution over the hill and out of sight forthe easy to fool consumers and in the factories or the foreign nation that dump toxics in the river by the factory which lowers the costs of the products.
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There are millions of US households where an EV like a Bolt or Leaf could replace one of the current errand/commuter cars and the owners would never miss the ICE. Heck there are millions of one car households that never ever exceed the range of a Leaf. But then there is cost, profitability, and infrastructure...
Interesting how many people are determined that EVs will never be mainstream instead of hoping they do and take their place. A full size pickup isn't for everyone, a Honda Fit isn't for everyone, an EV isn't for everyone.
Interesting how many people are determined that EVs will never be mainstream instead of hoping they do and take their place. A full size pickup isn't for everyone, a Honda Fit isn't for everyone, an EV isn't for everyone.
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
My 1981 Comutacar EV was sold at a profit and was only discontinued because the government kept forcing charges to the cars design every 3 months and the company owner eventually gave up over several years of interface.
An enclosed golf cart that cost more than a Chevette that had a real heater and could actually reach freeway speed. Good example. The value lies in being a rare oddity. Not fit for any public road with a speed limit over 30.
My 1981 Comutacar EV was sold at a profit and was only discontinued because the government kept forcing charges to the cars design every 3 months and the company owner eventually gave up over several years of interface.
An enclosed golf cart that cost more than a Chevette that had a real heater and could actually reach freeway speed. Good example. The value lies in being a rare oddity. Not fit for any public road with a speed limit over 30.
Tesla builds incredible cars. Our Model 3 is simply fantastic.
All EV owners I know have more than 1 car. Heck, how many do I have?
They are not for everyone; especially the futuristic Model 3.
Younger people, who grew up with computers find them natural; older people struggle with the simplistic brilliant interior.
Certainly profitability is critical for Tesla or any company.
Remember they are building their charging infrastructure and Gigafactory (beginning production soon, I believe).
The Model Y gets them into the CR-V Rav4 market. They will take market share.
Tesla currently sells almost 100,000 cars per quarter.
And they make only EVs; the only company to do so.
Range anxiety is a biggie. But you learn; it is different.
When we first got our car, we drove around checking out charging locations.
I realized it really is doable...
Silicon Valley has many places to charge; certainly more than most.
I will tell you there can be lines to get on to a Supercharger.
But the network (at least around here) is amazing. Go to Kaiser (or any big hospital); charge. Restaurants; charge. Library; charge.
All decent sized malls have Tesla Superchargers and/or other brands.
Our EV starts out every day with a full tank. My other cars not so much.
Again, these cars are not for everyone, but they have a place.
And they are evolving.
All the major manufacturers are developing EVs.
I suggest you drive a Model 3. You will be blown away.
On the other hand, a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, etc will fit the bill for just about anyone at a far cheaper initial price, to be sure.
That's my 2 cents.
All EV owners I know have more than 1 car. Heck, how many do I have?
They are not for everyone; especially the futuristic Model 3.
Younger people, who grew up with computers find them natural; older people struggle with the simplistic brilliant interior.
Certainly profitability is critical for Tesla or any company.
Remember they are building their charging infrastructure and Gigafactory (beginning production soon, I believe).
The Model Y gets them into the CR-V Rav4 market. They will take market share.
Tesla currently sells almost 100,000 cars per quarter.
And they make only EVs; the only company to do so.
Range anxiety is a biggie. But you learn; it is different.
When we first got our car, we drove around checking out charging locations.
I realized it really is doable...
Silicon Valley has many places to charge; certainly more than most.
I will tell you there can be lines to get on to a Supercharger.
But the network (at least around here) is amazing. Go to Kaiser (or any big hospital); charge. Restaurants; charge. Library; charge.
All decent sized malls have Tesla Superchargers and/or other brands.
Our EV starts out every day with a full tank. My other cars not so much.
Again, these cars are not for everyone, but they have a place.
And they are evolving.
All the major manufacturers are developing EVs.
I suggest you drive a Model 3. You will be blown away.
On the other hand, a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, etc will fit the bill for just about anyone at a far cheaper initial price, to be sure.
That's my 2 cents.
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Electric vehicles are currently limited by battery technology. When we see advancements there, we will see them really surge in practicality and popularity, IMO
I love the idea of a PEV, but their short range and long charge times prevent me from wanting one just yet. By the time my current vehicle is worn out, I suspect they will have advanced enough for me to go that route.
I love the idea of a PEV, but their short range and long charge times prevent me from wanting one just yet. By the time my current vehicle is worn out, I suspect they will have advanced enough for me to go that route.
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I suggest you drive a Model 3. You will be blown away.
On the other hand, a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, etc will fit the bill for just about anyone at a far cheaper initial price, to be sure.
That's my 2 cents.
I know I'd love to have one.
I also know it won't pay for its high cost at $2.50/gal when I only drive 10-12K a year, and I'm not rich enough to buy one at the current price just because I want it.
And this is the only thing saving the power grid from them, as I've mentioned before in other threads, and others in this thread.
I suggest you drive a Model 3. You will be blown away.
On the other hand, a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, etc will fit the bill for just about anyone at a far cheaper initial price, to be sure.
That's my 2 cents.
I know I'd love to have one.
I also know it won't pay for its high cost at $2.50/gal when I only drive 10-12K a year, and I'm not rich enough to buy one at the current price just because I want it.
And this is the only thing saving the power grid from them, as I've mentioned before in other threads, and others in this thread.
Originally Posted by MrMoody
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I suggest you drive a Model 3. You will be blown away.
On the other hand, a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, etc will fit the bill for just about anyone at a far cheaper initial price, to be sure.
That's my 2 cents.
I know I'd love to have one.
I also know it won't pay for its high cost at $2.50/gal when I only drive 10-12K a year, and I'm not rich enough to buy one at the current price just because I want it.
Excellent point. Petrol in sunny Silicon Valley sure ain't $2.50 per gallon. $3.50 and up for rag.
I charge for free due to solar.
Oh yeah I love my ICE cars; they are great. The GS gets crappy mileage but is a great car.
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
I suggest you drive a Model 3. You will be blown away.
On the other hand, a Civic, Accord, Camry, Corolla, etc will fit the bill for just about anyone at a far cheaper initial price, to be sure.
That's my 2 cents.
I know I'd love to have one.
I also know it won't pay for its high cost at $2.50/gal when I only drive 10-12K a year, and I'm not rich enough to buy one at the current price just because I want it.
Excellent point. Petrol in sunny Silicon Valley sure ain't $2.50 per gallon. $3.50 and up for rag.
I charge for free due to solar.
Oh yeah I love my ICE cars; they are great. The GS gets crappy mileage but is a great car.
Originally Posted by MrMoody
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
My 1981 Comutacar EV was sold at a profit and was only discontinued because the government kept forcing charges to the cars design every 3 months and the company owner eventually gave up over several years of interface.
An enclosed golf cart that cost more than a Chevette that had a real heater and could actually reach freeway speed. Good example. The value lies in being a rare oddity. Not fit for any public road with a speed limit over 30.
And yet nearly 40 years later it still works with only minor maintenance .
C-cars MSRP varied from $1500-$4000 depending on the model and year
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
My 1981 Comutacar EV was sold at a profit and was only discontinued because the government kept forcing charges to the cars design every 3 months and the company owner eventually gave up over several years of interface.
An enclosed golf cart that cost more than a Chevette that had a real heater and could actually reach freeway speed. Good example. The value lies in being a rare oddity. Not fit for any public road with a speed limit over 30.
And yet nearly 40 years later it still works with only minor maintenance .
C-cars MSRP varied from $1500-$4000 depending on the model and year
Originally Posted by CT8
As usual the problem is and rarely if at all reported is the electric grid. For example California seems to to be able to with stand the increased electricity use on a hot day. California 's utilities could be fooling the easy to fool but still,,,, Electric vehicles can be great city cars. Electric cars move the pollution over the hill and out of sight forthe easy to fool consumers and in the factories or the foreign nation that dump toxics in the river by the factory which lowers the costs of the products.
How much electrical power is being generated outside of California for their use? I believe it's quite a bit. That should be considered.
As usual the problem is and rarely if at all reported is the electric grid. For example California seems to to be able to with stand the increased electricity use on a hot day. California 's utilities could be fooling the easy to fool but still,,,, Electric vehicles can be great city cars. Electric cars move the pollution over the hill and out of sight forthe easy to fool consumers and in the factories or the foreign nation that dump toxics in the river by the factory which lowers the costs of the products.
How much electrical power is being generated outside of California for their use? I believe it's quite a bit. That should be considered.
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