Effectiveness of Car Headlights

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The headlight of 2000 MB E430 is E-code reflector with H7 halogen bulb, it is much brighter than LS400 with H4 bulb and brighter than Accord with projector and H11 bulb. Accord with H9 bulb is a little better than E430 with OEM bulb.

If MB could do good E-code headlight 15 years ago with halogen H7, the cost of this system is so minimum why BMW didn't just design similar system ?

I don't know how much LED headlight system cost, but so far I didn't see many good LED headlights on the road, their performance was very dismal with extreme hot spot on front of the car, more than 100-150 feet was very dark and totally black at 200-250 feet.


The light output of LED lights I tested was poor compared to HID. HID allows a much wider beam and possibly longer throw without sacrificing anything compared to LED, barring startup time.


There's simply too much variation in the LED space to make a consistent comparison. At least HID retrofits are rebased "standard" HID bulbs with the hot spot aligned-ish to where it should be on a halogen. LEDs are all over the place...


These were not retrofits I was comparing

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jetronic


The light output of LED lights I tested was poor compared to HID. HID allows a much wider beam and possibly longer throw without sacrificing anything compared to LED, barring startup time.


There's simply too much variation in the LED space to make a consistent comparison. At least HID retrofits are rebased "standard" HID bulbs with the hot spot aligned-ish to where it should be on a halogen. LEDs are all over the place...


These were not retrofits I was comparing


Was I supposed to intrinsically know that based upon the comment you made?

FWIW I wasnt impressed with the LED Corolla headlights (or the car at all), compared to my LED retrofits...

Id suspect that in real conditions, HIDs throw more lumens than an 3000-ish lumen LED...

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And you just demonstrated what I mentioned above. The 3-series is Accord territory, the 5'er is not. The 2-series is perhaps Civic territory but I'd argue that's more for the 1-series. Honda doesn't make a car to compete with the 5-series, let alone the M5. It is a larger sedan than the Accord.

He was comparing from a size perspective. If you compare exterior and interior dimensions, 3-series is very close to Civic, and 5-series is very close to Accord.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jetronic


The light output of LED lights I tested was poor compared to HID. HID allows a much wider beam and possibly longer throw without sacrificing anything compared to LED, barring startup time.


There's simply too much variation in the LED space to make a consistent comparison. At least HID retrofits are rebased "standard" HID bulbs with the hot spot aligned-ish to where it should be on a halogen. LEDs are all over the place...


These were not retrofits I was comparing


Was I supposed to intrinsically know that based upon the comment you made?

FWIW I wasnt impressed with the LED Corolla headlights (or the car at all), compared to my LED retrofits...

Id suspect that in real conditions, HIDs throw more lumens than an 3000-ish lumen LED...


I did drive a Corolla rental with the LED. Didn't realize that they were LED at first til I looked it up, thought that maybe they were HID but just weren't that bright. The Bixenons on my E350 seem a bit brighter. I don't think LEDs are brighter than Bixenons at this point, but they are cheaper. Probably why Mercedes went with LED as standard instead of having a mix of halogens as standard and if you wanted to spend an extra 2k, add in Bixenons. Finding a used one that had bixenons was like one car in 10, the rest, halogens.

 

[JetStar]

I saw this on the news. I was curious as to why this is the case. Is it low engineering budget to design "good" headlights, BTW what defines good? Is it manufacturing tolerances, or materials? Is it styling or packaging constraints? I would thing that a cheap car could have "good" headlights, at least as good as the chosen technology would allow (i.e. halogen, LED, HID).

 

[Surestick]

I wonder if it isn't actually "better" headlight design that has caused the problem.
The cut-off on newer headlights seems to me to be much sharper with less light escaping above it to go down the road and illuminate road signs and marker poles. Some newer vehicles also seem to put less light to the sides (I find the new Ford Taurus terrible for this).

I feel like better control of the light means more is going where it's supposed to but less if going where some is needed.

 

[wrcsixeight]

Apparently how well one can see objects ahead from behind headlights, and how well a human thinks they can see, can be at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Look at how many people drive with their fog lights on all the time at any speed. Lots of foreground lighting is feel good lighting, but in the tests at the topic of this study, more foreground light would make the 300' distant object even less visible due to the excessive foreground lighting constricting pupil and letting in less light.

Try it on a quiet street. Find a manhole cover and back away from it until it is barely visible, then turn on your fog lights, and magically it disappears.

UNfortunately, this study will likely just have more people thinking a drop in HID or LED bulb into a halogen housing,is an upgrade, and more people will drive around blinding drivers on the other side of the road with too much light in the wrong areas. They will never believe their efforts and money spent was not wise.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And you just demonstrated what I mentioned above. The 3-series is Accord territory, the 5'er is not. The 2-series is perhaps Civic territory but I'd argue that's more for the 1-series. Honda doesn't make a car to compete with the 5-series, let alone the M5. It is a larger sedan than the Accord.

He was comparing from a size perspective. If you compare exterior and interior dimensions, 3-series is very close to Civic, and 5-series is very close to Accord.



The current 5'er is 193-197" L x 73-75 W x 58-61" H
The current 3'er is 179-190" L x 71-72 W x 56-59" H
The current 2'er is 175" L x 70" W x 56" H

The Accord is 190-193" L x 73" W x 57-58" H
The Civic is 177-182" L x 71" W x 55-56" H

IMHO, the 3'er matches up with the Accord and the 2'er with the Civic from a entirely sized-based perspective

I would say that market-wise the Accord/3'er are likely cross shopped more than somebody would a 5'er but I would think that somebody in the market for a 2 series or a Civic wouldn't be cross shopping the two.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And you just demonstrated what I mentioned above. The 3-series is Accord territory, the 5'er is not. The 2-series is perhaps Civic territory but I'd argue that's more for the 1-series. Honda doesn't make a car to compete with the 5-series, let alone the M5. It is a larger sedan than the Accord.

He was comparing from a size perspective. If you compare exterior and interior dimensions, 3-series is very close to Civic, and 5-series is very close to Accord.



The current 5'er is 193-197" L x 73-75 W x 58-61" H
The current 3'er is 179-190" L x 71-72 W x 56-59" H
The current 2'er is 175" L x 70" W x 56" H

The Accord is 190-193" L x 73" W x 57-58" H
The Civic is 177-182" L x 71" W x 55-56" H

IMHO, the 3'er matches up with the Accord and the 2'er with the Civic from a entirely sized-based perspective

I would say that market-wise the Accord/3'er are likely cross shopped more than somebody would a 5'er but I would think that somebody in the market for a 2 series or a Civic wouldn't be cross shopping the two.

There are many ways to classify vehicle size. I go with official EPA rating, you go with your own rating, someone else may invent another rating, and another may invent another rating ...

EPA Size Class: Passenger & Cargo Volume (Cu. Ft.)
Sedans
Minicompact Subcompact 85 to 99
Compact 100 to 109
Mid-Size 110 to 119
Large 120 or more

EPA classification of vehicle size doesn't take into account external dimensions, only Passenger & Cargo Volume. Scroll down by 6 or 7 pages for Vehicle Size: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacarhelp.shtml#epaSizeClass

According to EPA: BMW 320 109 cf, MB C300 103 cf, Audi A4 103 cf and 2015 Honda Civic 4-dr 107 cf are compact cars(between 100 and 109 cf). 2016 Honda Civic at 112 cf is classified as mid-size.

BMW 320 is the biggest compact and needs only 1 cf to become mid-size car. 2015 Civic is 2 cf smaller than BMW 320

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?a...98&id=34784

These are mid-size sedan(110-119 cf) according to EPA: BMW 528 116 cf, MB E350 111 cf, Audi A6 114 cf and Honda Accord 119 cf.

Accord is biggest mid-size car and needs only 1 cf to become large car, BMW 528 is 3 cf smaller than Accord.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?a...42&id=36178


I will post about other type of comparing later. Stay tune !

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The current 5'er is 193-197" L x 73-75 W x 58-61" H
The current 3'er is 179-190" L x 71-72 W x 56-59" H
The current 2'er is 175" L x 70" W x 56" H

The Accord is 190-193" L x 73" W x 57-58" H
The Civic is 177-182" L x 71" W x 55-56" H

Look at the interior dimensions.

The Accord has as much or more room than a 5-series.

Quote:
I would say that market-wise the Accord/3'er are likely cross shopped more than somebody would a 5'er but I would think that somebody in the market for a 2 series or a Civic wouldn't be cross shopping the two.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is cross-shopping Honda and BMW. Someone either wants reliability (implied at least) and low operating cost or someone wants the ultimate driving machine and the blue roundel on the hood.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
On the vehicles without self levelling lights, I wonder how well the lights were aimed on the vehicles from the factory.



Bingo. I've had a few cars that from the factory, the lights were aimed so far to the lower right to reduce glare to oncoming traffic, it rendered the headlights useless. I re-aimed them up and to the left so they still had a bias to the right, and it substantially improved visibility. And if it did increase glare to other drivers, it couldn't be nearly as bad as some OEM and aftermarket HID/LED systems that blind me.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Yeah, I don't think anyone is cross-shopping Honda and BMW. Someone either wants reliability (implied at least) and low operating cost or someone wants the ultimate driving machine and the blue roundel on the hood.


I cross shopped MB E-class with my accord hybrid for a 45 mpg sedan. Wanted the e-class and could afford, but could buy two accords. Inability to find a brown diesel with the classic grille front and real star, not the silly "sport" front, is what diverted me on a whim to the homda dealer...

I didn't cross shop the s2000 when I bought my 135i, don't think they were still in production.... But certainly I could have if I fit comfortably (why the miatamwent off the list day one).

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I cross shopped MB E-class with my accord hybrid

Yes, there is an exception to every rule.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Yeah, I don't think anyone is cross-shopping Honda and BMW. Someone either wants reliability (implied at least) and low operating cost or someone wants the ultimate driving machine and the blue roundel on the hood.

I cross shopped MB E-class with my accord hybrid for a 45 mpg sedan. Wanted the e-class and could afford, but could buy two accords. Inability to find a brown diesel with the classic grille front and real star, not the silly "sport" front, is what diverted me on a whim to the Honda dealer...

I didn't cross shop the s2000 when I bought my 135i, don't think they were still in production.... But certainly I could have if I fit comfortably (why the Miata went off the list day one).

If you're taller than 6'2" and/or more than 180-200 lbs you will not fit very comfortably in a S2000, BMW Z4 has more interior room than S2000.

Ideal size for S2000 is 5'7"-5'10" and 140-160 lbs. This car was designed in Japan for Japanese drivers, they are shorter and skinnier than American.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

I cross shopped MB E-class with my accord hybrid for a 45 mpg sedan. Wanted the e-class and could afford, but could buy two accords. Inability to find a brown diesel with the classic grille front and real star, not the silly "sport" front, is what diverted me on a whim to the homda dealer...

I didn't cross shop the s2000 when I bought my 135i, don't think they were still in production.... But certainly I could have if I fit comfortably (why the miatamwent off the list day one).


I am 6'2" and once had to ride to a meeting in the passenger seat of a Miata with the top down...I was seriously concerned about my neck bones after a few potholes. I was able to drive a CRX for several years (although I think I did have to slouch a bit), but that Miata could have been the death of me.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The current 5'er is 193-197" L x 73-75 W x 58-61" H
The current 3'er is 179-190" L x 71-72 W x 56-59" H
The current 2'er is 175" L x 70" W x 56" H

The Accord is 190-193" L x 73" W x 57-58" H
The Civic is 177-182" L x 71" W x 55-56" H

Look at the interior dimensions.

The Accord has as much or more room than a 5-series.

Quote:
I would say that market-wise the Accord/3'er are likely cross shopped more than somebody would a 5'er but I would think that somebody in the market for a 2 series or a Civic wouldn't be cross shopping the two.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is cross-shopping Honda and BMW. Someone either wants reliability (implied at least) and low operating cost or someone wants the ultimate driving machine and the blue roundel on the hood.


Food for thought, and I am sure you are aware of this on your car, but being RWD, you are giving up interior volume for the trans tunnel and driveshaft tunnel, thus reducing overall volume. That's part of the reason I used external size as my metric, but I don't think there is really a 1:1 relationship between the German RWD sleds and the Asian FWD ones, even when they are aimed at the same market.

Subsequently that brings us to the 2nd point about people cross-shopping Honda and BMW. You are quite right, they'd mostly be shopping against a Benz or an Audi, maybe even a Mustang/Camaro/Challenger/Charger. Something RWD or AWD.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Food for thought, and I am sure you are aware of this on your car, but being RWD, you are giving up interior volume for the trans tunnel and driveshaft tunnel, thus reducing overall volume.

True. The overall interior volume isn't a particularly useful measurement. I mainly focus on things like front/rear legroom, front/rear headroom, hip room, shoulder room, etc, and even these should be double-checked by actually sitting in and driving the car. Despite ample room, some car seats aren't as comfortable as others.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Food for thought, and I am sure you are aware of this on your car, but being RWD, you are giving up interior volume for the trans tunnel and driveshaft tunnel, thus reducing overall volume.

True. The overall interior volume isn't a particularly useful measurement. I mainly focus on things like front/rear legroom, front/rear headroom, hip room, shoulder room, etc, and even these should be double-checked by actually sitting in and driving the car. Despite ample room, some car seats aren't as comfortable as others.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

I cross shopped MB E-class with my accord hybrid for a 45 mpg sedan. Wanted the e-class and could afford, but could buy two accords. Inability to find a brown diesel with the classic grille front and real star, not the silly "sport" front, is what diverted me on a whim to the homda dealer...

I didn't cross shop the s2000 when I bought my 135i, don't think they were still in production.... But certainly I could have if I fit comfortably (why the miatamwent off the list day one).


I am 6'2" and once had to ride to a meeting in the passenger seat of a Miata with the top down...I was seriously concerned about my neck bones after a few potholes. I was able to drive a CRX for several years (although I think I did have to slouch a bit), but that Miata could have been the death of me.


When I was in college I had an internship where my supervisor was a Brit who was about as tall as I (6 ft 5) and drove a first-gen Miata as a DD. I felt like I fit in that one OK, but when I tried to fit in one years later I couldn't.

Easily fitting (with great headroom) in my 135i is a reason why I love it so.

 

[Vern_in_IL]

Here is my take:

Tail lights have significantly improved! You really notice tail lights these days, they are much better than that all red lens with a dual filament bulb of old!.

Fog lights have actually gotten worse over time. They used to be yellow, they were more precision and used bulb shades to mold the beam pattern... now it seems all fogs are a [censored] round reflector with a H10 bulb... nothing but glare for other drivers. (where are the steerable fogs to light corners?)

Headlamps were bad, then gotten better, then bad again. Started with sealed, halogen, then fluted composite with replaceable bulb, projectors, then came DRL integration, then HID, AFS, lasers, LED's, more LED's.

IMO, I feel that lighting performance is not the main reason for headlamps anymore. They are more concerned with wind aerodynamics, style(Buick and that blue ring)

They have become the modern day hood ordinment. When auto makers started demanding clear lenses and "free form" reflectors, all of a sudden, it mattered how the insides looked. When that happened, there has been increased stress on designers to make compromises. Remember that headlamp companies are practicing "self compliance", would not surprise me if shoddy workmanship is out there, especially when car makers like Nissan pressure lower cost constantly.