Don't synthetics lubricate (less wear) better ?

[Corvette Owner]

I have always assumed that synthetic oils lubricate better than conventional oils. This is why they produce more horsepower on a dynomometer. Doesn't it follow then that they must wear less than a conventional oil?

I guess we could discuss whether the "less wear" is significant, e.g. would an engine go 170,000 on a conventional and 200,000 on synthetic.

What are your opinions on this, does synthetic oil lubricate better?

 

[StevieC]

Are you talking in general or about your Corvette application?

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
I have always assumed that synthetic oils lubricate better than conventional oils. This is why they produce more horsepower on a dynomometer. Doesn't it follow then that they must wear less than a conventional oil?

I guess we could discuss whether the "less wear" is significant, e.g. would an engine go 170,000 on a conventional and 200,000 on synthetic.

What are your opinions on this, does synthetic oil lubricate better?


I don't know that synthetics lubricate better, but they are able to maintain lubrication under much more varying conditions and much more consistently with less degradation. In other words, they may not be slipperier (if that's a word) but they work better in the real world at times. The difference today is a lot less than it was 20 years ago, and with the current crop of Group III base oils the line between synthetic and conventional is very blurry anyway.

Also, more power on a dyno does NOT necessarily mean less wear. Lubrication at the microscopic level is extremely complex and I'm no expert, but as I understand it there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal. Conversely, there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction.

 

[bepperb]

A thinner oil will get you more power on the Dyno every time. That's not always what people are after.

At new, a Synthetic doesn't offer better lubrication. At some point in time thousands of miles down the road, the Dino has either sheared too thin, become acidic or formed deposits in the engine and then yes, the syntetic will be doing a better job of lubricating. Or in extreme cold it would also be better at lubricating.

So it's a better product in some ways, but doesn't have a lower amount of friction.

 

[Corvette Owner]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
I have always assumed that synthetic oils lubricate better than conventional oils. This is why they produce more horsepower on a dynomometer. Doesn't it follow then that they must wear less than a conventional oil?

I guess we could discuss whether the "less wear" is significant, e.g. would an engine go 170,000 on a conventional and 200,000 on synthetic.

What are your opinions on this, does synthetic oil lubricate better?


I don't know that synthetics lubricate better, but they are able to maintain lubrication under much more varying conditions and much more consistently with less degradation. In other words, they may not be slipperier (if that's a word) but they work better in the real world at times. The difference today is a lot less than it was 20 years ago, and with the current crop of Group III base oils the line between synthetic and conventional is very blurry anyway.

Also, more power on a dyno does NOT necessarily mean less wear. Lubrication at the microscopic level is extremely complex and I'm no expert, but as I understand it there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal. Conversely, there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction.



Wow, I learned something from your last paragraph! I can see how ". . . there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal. Conversely, there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction."

Although, I must admit that I can understand how ". . . there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction." better than ". . . there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal." I have a tough time seeing how reduced friction could cause more wear?

 

[FrankN4]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
I have always assumed that synthetic oils lubricate better than conventional oils. This is why they produce more horsepower on a dynomometer. Doesn't it follow then that they must wear less than a conventional oil?

I guess we could discuss whether the "less wear" is significant, e.g. would an engine go 170,000 on a conventional and 200,000 on synthetic.

What are your opinions on this, does synthetic oil lubricate better?


I don't know that synthetics lubricate better, but they are able to maintain lubrication under much more varying conditions and much more consistently with less degradation. In other words, they may not be slipperier (if that's a word) but they work better in the real world at times. The difference today is a lot less than it was 20 years ago, and with the current crop of Group III base oils the line between synthetic and conventional is very blurry anyway.

Also, more power on a dyno does NOT necessarily mean less wear. Lubrication at the microscopic level is extremely complex and I'm no expert, but as I understand it there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal. Conversely, there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction.

 

[yannis]

I found this post interesting :

"Having worked in the oil business for a major oil company for all of my adult life, testing, comparing, blending and developing lubricants for major engine manufacturer, I can tell you that a good brand of mineral oil is all an engine requires. There is nothing wrong with high-end (price) synthetic but for most normal application, you are wasting your hard-earned money. I must say the oil comanies have done an extremely good job at marketing their high prices synthetic oil on with they make a very high profit margin.
I sometime compare using synthetic oil in a engine to washing your car with chirurgical certified grade distilled water. It does the job, but at what price?
JackD "

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=85971

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: yannis
I found this post interesting :

"Having worked in the oil business for a major oil company for all of my adult life, testing, comparing, blending and developing lubricants for major engine manufacturer, I can tell you that a good brand of mineral oil is all an engine requires. There is nothing wrong with high-end (price) synthetic but for most normal application, you are wasting your hard-earned money. I must say the oil comanies have done an extremely good job at marketing their high prices synthetic oil on with they make a very high profit margin.
I sometime compare using synthetic oil in a engine to washing your car with chirurgical certified grade distilled water. It does the job, but at what price?
JackD "

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=85971



I agree, except for one part. If one is able to extend OCI twice or so over conventional, synthetic will be cost effective and could decrease wear via the used oil = less wear, less friction principle.

 

[FrankN4]

Quote:
I sometime compare using synthetic oil in a engine to washing your car with chirurgical certified grade distilled water. It does the job, but at what price?
JackD "

You mean....you don't.

At least you do use a good conditioner after you wash your car...right?

 

[JHZR2]

It is a vast equation which cannot be described by just one or a few metrics.

cold flow, startup behavior, sludge and ixidation also come into play, which may or may not be indicated by a base analysis of wear, at least until very long-term.

You must also consider OCI.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Also, more power on a dyno does NOT necessarily mean less wear. Lubrication at the microscopic level is extremely complex and I'm no expert, but as I understand it there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal. Conversely, there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction.



Wow, I learned something from your last paragraph! I can see how ". . . there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal. Conversely, there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction."

Although, I must admit that I can understand how ". . . there are anti-wear agents that reduce metal removal but may actually increase (slightly) friction." better than ". . . there are friction modifiers that can reduce sliding friction without actually reducing metal removal." I have a tough time seeing how reduced friction could cause more wear?


Like I said, I'm no expert but my crude understanding is that the total friction at a sliding contact point comes from several sources, such as:

1 metal-to-metal contact (the actual wear process)
2 oil and friction modifier additive molecules grinding against each other and against the metal (not wear related)
3 sacrificial additives (eg. ZDDP) doing their thing (wear suppression)
4 lots of other stuff I don't understand (catch all

)

When you stop and think about it, *most* of the actual measurable friction has to come from source 2, or else engines would wear out in minutes instead of in years. So a little savings in #2 can actually dominate the total friction.

Given that, I can vaguely see how you could make a friction modifier additive combo that greatly reduce the friction of the oil and additive molecules against each other while not actually stopping the metal-to-metal contact. Net result: less friction at the sliding contact, but still the same wear.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Using synthetic oil in a normal engine is like putting out a forest fire with Perrier.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Using synthetic oil in a normal engine is like putting out a forest fire with Perrier.


You will get lower CC temps with synt.,cleaner engines, better starting in cold temps, longer OCIs, better protection in extreme heat. Did I miss anything?

 

[d00df00d]

440Magnum and bepperb summed it up well.

To their comments, I would only add that there is often a fair bit of power to be made from reducing windage losses. From my understanding, it's possible for an oil to reduce this effect without being much better in other ways. This is another possible effect of many synthetics.

 

[FrankN4]

Quote:
I don't know that synthetics lubricate better, but they are able to maintain lubrication under much more varying conditions and much more consistently with less degradation. In other words, they may not be slipperier (if that's a word) but they work better in the real world at times.


Quote:
You will get lower CC temps with synt.,cleaner engines, better starting in cold temps, longer OCIs, better protection in extreme heat. Did I miss anything?


These are the primary, real world reasons, I have used synthetic since 1988. I have used Mobil 1 and Amsoil synthetics since 1990. I use synthetic motor oil, synthetic transmission fluid, synthetic gear lube in manual transmissions and rear axles.

Cleaner engines mean reduced heat, better lubrication flow and especially return. I also want the extreme heat protection. Not heat from the outside air but hot spots in the engine, high oil temps when loaded with a camper pack and pulling a trailer.

TO ME, synthetics mean a cleaner engine and an engine protected from heat(also applies to transmissions and rear axles) The synthetic may give protection above and beyond what I actually need, but if I only needed it once, I want it to be there.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Using synthetic oil in a normal engine is like putting out a forest fire with Perrier.


I think that is a little extreme. The price difference many times is not that great given the service/mileage life between oil changes.

Not only do they lubricate better (esp in very cold conditions) but they usually have better additive packages to help keep the engine clean and working at peak efficiency.

 

[buster]

I think additives have become so advanced that the general rule of synthetics offering better lubricity is not that accurate. It depends on a lot of things.

 

[ADFD1]

IMO synthetic oils offer some advantages in extreme conditions such as heat, cold, extended OCI's. Or in the event of a hose or belt failure, or sudden loss of oil, but then maybe only a few seconds. As far as better lubricating, maybe, but only in extreme conditions.

AD

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Using synthetic oil in a normal engine is like putting out a forest fire with Perrier.

 

[Gary Allan]

Margins.

Margins in time (endurance - but not all synthetics are geared to longer drains)
Margins in extremes conditions.

There is no magic oil. There are differences in how good they perform either in duration, durability, or functionality (like @ -35)