Dodge kills full size EV pickup truck development

Ever heard of our Military?
Yes, of course. If government serves to secure basic liberties and provide an arena in which people may prosper, then there are times it has to provide for a common defense against external threats to same. Our constitution explicitly addresses this point in article I, section 8.

I don’t want to antagonize you. From your posts, you are obviously an intelligent person and I have enjoyed reading your posts. But your stated view of government is in tension with the view expressed in the Declaration of Independence and to a lesser extent the Constitution. Now the government certainly has taken on more responsibilities over the years and some of it has been helpful but it has also caused problems, in my opinion. This is one of those - where the government takes it upon itself to try to change a mode of personal transportation when there are many more pressing problems, again in my opinion.

Take care.
 
I was pointing out to you that GM was selling an EV in 2010 with gas gen backup for 40k for 7 years before Tesla came out with an all electric in the same price 40k price range. So GM's first vehicles did NOT come out at 100k +. Its first vehicles came out in 2010 at 40k
The Volt was an extended range EV. It's not directly comparable to a full EV because the most expensive component—the battery pack—is much smaller (and cheaper!) than that of a full EV. Also, that 40K number isn't adjusted for inflation. The comparable number when the Model 3 was released in 2017 was around $48,000.

IN 2016 GM's next product the BOLT came out and its price was not $100,000 but $37,000

This was in response to your statement without Tesla the US might be behind. Maybe without GM Tesla wouldnt have come out with the Model 3 at a low price? I dont know. Keep in mind GM came out with the affordable Bolt before the Model 3 too.

GM was bragging about beating the Tesla to the market with an affordable full electric vehicle. But the Bolt was never profitable for the Company. Tesla was getting a lot of press and inflated market valuation (and still so) for its pronouncements re: the Model 3. Similarly, Tesla got a less of press and reservations for that ugly-as-sin Cybertruck, as did Rivian. So Ford rushed the Lightning to market.
Canada is on the verge of removing 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. The public wants the tariff's removed and their farmers want it removed.
So we could expect market share to go down even more, then in the USA Chinese EV's POSSIBLY would not be far behind.
Competition from China maybe a good thing for consumers. EVs are WAY too expensive here in the USA and Canada. Actually all cars are.
I agree that competition would be a good thing for consumers. But part of the problem is that China's industrial output, including EVs, is heavily subsidized, so domestic vehicle manufacturers would be facing unfair competition. Even the CCP recognizes that China has an excess of production capacity.
Anyway, if you are a believer that EV's are the end all of all vehicles sometime in the next 50 years and gasoline vehicles will go away. Then once again, Americans may have shot themselves in the foot as of right now we rule the HUGE vast interstate roadways of our country in big beautiful lower cost gasoline SUVs.

BTW- just friendly discussion from me!! All I want as a consumer is affordable, nice, powerful 3 ROW size SUVs that can tow 5000+ lbs at a reasonable price.
It definitely won't take 50 years. We'll still have ICE, the same way we still have horse-drawn buggies.

Kia EV9, Volvo EX90, Tesla Model X, Rivian R1S, and Lucid Gravity are rated for ~5,000 lbs, but of course range would be impacted depending on the profile of the load. The Suburban EV will likely mirror the tow capability of the Escalade iQ, but it's going to be pricey. But looking at past technological advances and the investment in the sector, we're on pace to see substantial price decreases. The Silverado RST was $96,000. Now an LT with ~400 miles of range is $75,000. And this is before GM has built out all of its planned battery manufacturing capacity. With cheaper cells and more scale, EV powertrains will be at parity with ICE very soon. Arguably, in some segments they already are. An Equinox EV at $35,000 is very competitive when you take fuel and maintenance into account.

I don't take any of this personally. It's nice to discuss topics without people throwing shade at one another.
 
Regarding pricing, that's how the curve works for any new technology. PCs, Flat screen TVs, cell phones...all had high prices until volume increased and production scaled. Tesla didn't even achieve profitability until the Model 3 shipped. That's why GM focused on having a scalable architecture when it decided to invest in electric. To GMs credit, it recognized that scaling up production and keeping the expensive parts the same across vehicles would enable it to achieve profitability sooner.
Yup. Start ups lose money for years; most don't make it. Tesla is sure to be belly up any day now, right?
A start up lured me with promises of founder stock riches "soon". Sure. Never went public. Then my boss told us, "You don't have to come into work. Time to look..."

Tesla burned cash like crazy and almost folded in 2018 when the Fremont factory automation kept failing; they couldn't build cars. It was in the local news constantly; prettymuch a comedy of errors.

Fast forward to today; GM and others have never made a penny on their EV endeavours and Tesla is, by far, the most valuable car company on the planet.

That's the numbers, and numbers are the language of Science.
 
Yes, of course. If government serves to secure basic liberties and provide an arena in which people may prosper, then there are times it has to provide for a common defense against external threats to same. Our constitution explicitly addresses this point in article I, section 8.

I don’t want to antagonize you. From your posts, you are obviously an intelligent person and I have enjoyed reading your posts. But your stated view of government is in tension with the view expressed in the Declaration of Independence and to a lesser extent the Constitution. Now the government certainly has taken on more responsibilities over the years and some of it has been helpful but it has also caused problems, in my opinion. This is one of those - where the government takes it upon itself to try to change a mode of personal transportation when there are many more pressing problems, again in my opinion.

Take care.
I don't mean to antagonize either; thanks for posting. My point is, government is responsible for things too expensive, too important, too big for the private sector. The Military is a prime example.

Regarding subsidies, we have to try. Many things will fail. Take Tesla. Sure there were government subsidies. The city of Fremont laid out the red carpet to sway Musk to build his factory in the ex-GM ex-NUMMI plant. So many people lost their jobs when NUMMI shuttered; it was the biggest employer in Fremont. The local tax base was decimated, homes were lost, and so on. Restaurants and shops closed. Today Tesla employs about 25,000 workers at the Fremont plant, far bigger than NUMMI ever did. I think NUMMI had about 6,000 at their peak. Then consider all the support jobs. This is a huge economic win for the area and the country. Tesla Fremont is the biggest car factory in the US by production numbers. Quite an ROI...

Huge win-win, right? Think of all the income taxes the Tesla work force pays. Capitalism for the win baby!
 
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I agree that competition would be a good thing for consumers. But part of the problem is that China's industrial output, including EVs, is heavily subsidized, so domestic vehicle manufacturers would be facing unfair competition. Even the CCP recognizes that China has an excess of production capacity.

It definitely won't take 50 years. We'll still have ICE, the same way we still have horse-drawn buggies.
As far as the first part being heavily subsidized, the American public doesn’t care as they didn’t care about anything coming from China as long as the price was right. Right now in Canada Canadians overwhelmingly support removing the tariffs from Chinese cars.

The analogy to horse drawn buggies makes no sense whatsoever.
Gasoline vehicles do everything and more than electric vehicle can so how can that compare to a horse drawn buggy?
One could actually look at it the other way around and say that about electric vehicles. Much of the population lives in multifamily housing, including apartment buildings and the ones that live in individual homes most have multiple cars for multiple family members.

Electric vehicles will never overtake gasoline vehicles on the road with their current technology.
Until the day comes, that an electric vehicle can recharge as fast as one can fill up gas in a gasoline tank and have the same amount of charge points available as gasoline pumps and have a price point for the vehicle that is the same as gasoline and at a cost no higher than the reasonable cost of gasoline per gallon vs kW which at the current time kW struggles to be equivalent in price at some super chargers and we haven’t even begun to get all the agencies to tax that electricity like they tax gasoline yet.
Electric vehicles are at the current time and technology, the horse drawn buggy. I didn’t bring that into the conversation, though I’m just replying to your post.
I’m not sure if you know this, but I have nothing against electric vehicles at all except accurate posts and reality.

As far as the Bolt goes I never met a consumer who would want to pay more for a vehicle so the company can make a profit on a specific product.
In the meantime, as an automobile company, General Motors has blown away Tesla for the last 10 years regarding profit.

Agree, 100% on cordial conversation and debate.
 
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The key is to not trade with countries that subsidize markets to the point that fair trade is no longer feasible, causing industries to fail that otherwise would be profitable if not for the economic warfare from a advasarial nation.

Right now, certain raw materials for every EV vehicle, manufactured in any nation, must be purchased from China. There is no alternative to these raw materials..China subsidized these and other raw materials to the point no other private organization could profitablity compete. This was not a fluke, but part of a 50 year master plan.

Hourglass is running out of sand. Time for action and sacrifice is today, tomorrow is more likely than not to late.
 
As far as the first part being heavily subsidized, the American public doesn’t care as they didn’t care about anything coming from China as long as the price was right. Right now in Canada Canadians overwhelmingly support removing the tariffs from Chinese cars.
Trump has really pissed off our neighbors. It will be very interesting to see if China can sell into the Canadian auto market. Most North Americans have no exposure to Chinese EVs. If they get into Canada, there's a good chance they'll make substantial inroads into yet another market prized by domestic manufacturers.
The analogy to horse drawn buggies makes no sense whatsoever.
Sure it does. It's antiquated technology that still exists. Much like ICE will be in the near future. I'm nearing 50. Assuming I have another 30 years I think new ICE vehicles will be rare well before I expire.
Gasoline vehicles do everything and more than electric vehicle can so how can that compare to a horse drawn buggy?
That may be true, but in the very near future, EVs will do everything ICE does with much lower maintenance and at lower cost. You can debate that, but look at the trajectory. Even on this forum, you'll find many people that believe ICE is going backwards for various reasons, mostly related to maintenance. In contrast, EV improvement is accelerating. GM is investing over $2,000,000 in batteries for one plant. It has like three plants, all multi-billion dollar investments. And that doesn't account for its investment in battery materials. In contrast, it's putting $900,000,000 in its staple V8 powertrain.
One could actually look at it the other way around and say that about electric vehicles. Much of the population lives in multifamily housing, including apartment buildings and the ones that live in individual homes most have multiple cars for multiple family members.
You're correct that multifamily housing residents will take longer to convert. But arguably, that demographic buys fewer new vehicles anyway. There substantial inroads still to be made with the population that resides in single-family housing. Even so, the multi-family demographic would benefit from cheaper vehicles with reduced maintenance requirements. Even if charging is the same cost as gas, the vehicle being cheaper to acquire and operate will make the choice easy once charging infrastructure has been addressed. Charging infrastructure is expanding rapidly and will continue to do so.
Electric vehicles will never overtake gasoline vehicles on the road with their current technology.
Until the day comes, that an electric vehicle can recharge as fast as one can fill up gas in a gasoline tank and have the same amount of charge points available as gasoline pumps and have a price point for the vehicle that is the same as gasoline and at a cost no higher than the reasonable cost of gasoline per gallon vs kW which at the current time kW struggles to be equivalent in price at some super chargers and we haven’t even begun to get all the agencies to tax that electricity like they tax gasoline yet.
CATL has already announced five-minute charging. The only time charging speed really matters is for road trips, which for many drivers is a comparatively small part of their overall mileage. For those use cases, most people take a break every three to four hours of driving. I can barely get my family into the store, use the bathroom, and get everyone back in the car in under 30 minutes.

The EGMP vehicles (Ioniq, EV6, GV60, EV9) have 800V charging that can add over 200 miles of range in less than 25 minutes. Porsche and Lucid can add 300 miles in 20 minutes. And this isn't even the state-of-the-art. The newer chargers being deployed in China are even faster. How long do you think it will realistically take for this technology to spread? Alpitronic is already deploying 400 kW chargers in the U.S., including the Walmart sites I referenced above.
I’m not sure if you know this, but I have nothing against electric vehicles at all except accurate posts and reality.
I don't doubt it. My only goal is a realistic appraisal of the market and a recognition of how quickly the technology is advancing.
As far as the Bolt goes I never met a consumer who would want to pay more for a vehicle so the company can make a profit on a specific product.
In the meantime, as an automobile company, General Motors has blown away Tesla for the last 10 years regarding profit.
GM has steadily brought the price of its EVs down by rapidly scaling. It went from the 95K Silverado RST to the 35K Equinox in under two years. Now it has a new Bolt coming to market below the Equinox. It makes sense that GM would beat Tesla on profit since its unit sales are much larger. I think Tesla is in for a hard few years because Elon has alienated many people (myself included) while allowing the company's products to stagnate (Cybertruck???).

GM, in contrast, is doing everything it needs to do to scale up production and drive costs down, all while innovating on the product front. On occasion I browse the GM truck forums and the people buying the Silverado and Sierra rave about those trucks. The Blazer EV I have wasn't even on my radar, but after searching for a higher trim Equinox EV and driving the RWD Blazer, I was very impressed with the packaging and interior quality. It's not as good as my wife's Jaguar was, but for a vehicle starting in the 45K range it was competitive with other vehicles in the class. Never thought I would buy another GM vehicle (I acquired a used Cobalt from a family member before). It was the first new vehicle I've purchased in 25 years.
Agree, 100% on cordial conversation and debate.
(y)
 
Trump has really pissed off our neighbors. It will be very interesting to see if China can sell into the Canadian auto market. Most North Americans have no exposure to Chinese EVs. If they get into Canada, there's a good chance they'll make substantial inroads into yet another market prized by domestic manufacturers.
Without a doubt, China has identified and planned on how Canada 's vast natural resources will belong to China. It is not if, but when. Canada already has Chinese colonies inside its borders. Of note, every single EV produced anywhere in the world contains Chinese materials, every single one. China has been working to be the only producer of these EV materials since the 1980s.
 
Without a doubt, China has identified and planned on how Canada 's vast natural resources will belong to China. It is not if, but when. Canada already has Chinese colonies inside its borders. Of note, every single EV produced anywhere in the world contains Chinese materials, every single one. China has been working to be the only producer of these EV materials since the 1980s.
But part of that is because mining for the materials has been environmentally harmful, and there wasn't as much of a focus on supply chain security and resilience. As with labor intensive industries, such as manufacturing, it was cheaper to just outsource raw material production to China. That has changed rapidly since Covid. There are other regions that can supply the needed materials, but China was, by its own design, the low cost producer. This is why the IRA included and the O3B retained incentives for domestic production of various process inputs for batteries and other critical energy products. Newer chemistries, such as SIB, LFP, Iron-Air, and Lithium Sulfur are less reliant on China for materials. But China does retain a substantial scale and cost advantage.
 
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Without a doubt, China has identified and planned on how Canada 's vast natural resources will belong to China. It is not if, but when. Canada already has Chinese colonies inside its borders. Of note, every single EV produced anywhere in the world contains Chinese materials, every single one. China has been working to be the only producer of these EV materials since the 1980s.
Well , at the very least. As long as China looks to the west (Canada, USA, Mexico, South America...) as a big customer base , maybe we wont have to fight them any time soon. Possibly, most of the world may have to fight them one day though.
Nixon doomed the world when he woke that sleeping giant and brought them into the modern world economy. It is eerie to see China is and has built almost a mirror image of who the Allies were before and during WWII (of course not free people) but almost an identical economic and industrial strengthened giant like we once were that contributed to the victories of WWII. Of course it would have happened anyway. Just maybe 50 - 60 years later. It is as if they have drugged the entire rest of the world to just sit there paralyzed and watch them working to rule the world one day.
 
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