I always check the gap and re-gap if necessary.
Do you gap your plugs?
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Just put some Twin Tip Denso iridiums in the Accent. They were all a bit under the recommended .040" So I set them all to .038". My Gen Coupe calls for a .043" gap and that is what the OE Denso TT plugs come with, or close to that. But the turbo will blow out the park and you need to narrow the gap to around .032".
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I think NGK changed their stance a bit on gapping platinum and iridium plugs. They now say it's OK, but only use a wire gap tool's puller and don't force anything. I think the bottle-opener style puller on a tapered regapping tool isn't the kind you want to use.
Quote:
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs
In the late 1980s, when fine-wire spark plugs first appeared, installers used incorrect gap tools and procedures resulting in bent or broken-off firing electrodes. As a result, many people assumed that one cannot adjust the gap on a precious metal plug. While most NGK spark plugs are pre-gapped, there are instances where the gap requires modification. NGK recommends a wire-style or feeler gage gap tool, which can adjust the gap without prying against the center electrode. NGK also recommends adjusting the gap no more than +/- 0.008” from the preset gap.
There shouldn't be anything inherently bad about regapping a platinum plug, but I guess a lot of people just did it the same way they used to and ended up chunking off the tips. Scratching a nickel alloy electrode isn't likely to affect the performance of the plug. Scraping off the platinum tip will.
Denso says use needle nose pliers or a gap tool, but be careful not to touch the center electrode or the porcelain. I think one issue with these thin-wire electrodes is that there's also not much between the ground electrode and the porcelain, so it's easy to damage the porcelain.
http://densoautoparts.com/spark-plug-installation
Yep that's it. Many a precious metal plug has been damaged by checking and adjusting them with some tools, if they don't look right I check them and use a tool on the ground electrode but my eyes are dam close for this sort of thing after doing so many thousands of plugs, no I cant see a couple of thousands difference but a bit more than that I sure can on most commonly used values.
We did a little project in school one time, the teacher was asking what effect close and wide plug gaps would have on engine performance and engine smoothness so we went and tried it.
Within about 0.05 either way there was very little difference on the dyno or perceived smoothness. This result mirrors some FSM that spec a gap range eg 0.28-0.32 which usually shows up in plug charts as just 0.30. Wider gaps had a real negative effect on misfire counts but the engine was noticeably smoother at idle, we didn't have OBD back then it was done on a scope, the easier to fire narrow gap showed no increase in misfire count but a noticeable roughness in the engine. These were standard plugs with a standard low voltage 20K coil, points and condenser, precious metal ones didn't exist for normal street cars back then.
There are engines where plug gap is more critical but this applies run of the mill non boosted engines, these engines may also benefit from indexing the plugs but I am not doing that either for normal street car.
I think NGK changed their stance a bit on gapping platinum and iridium plugs. They now say it's OK, but only use a wire gap tool's puller and don't force anything. I think the bottle-opener style puller on a tapered regapping tool isn't the kind you want to use.
Quote:
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs
In the late 1980s, when fine-wire spark plugs first appeared, installers used incorrect gap tools and procedures resulting in bent or broken-off firing electrodes. As a result, many people assumed that one cannot adjust the gap on a precious metal plug. While most NGK spark plugs are pre-gapped, there are instances where the gap requires modification. NGK recommends a wire-style or feeler gage gap tool, which can adjust the gap without prying against the center electrode. NGK also recommends adjusting the gap no more than +/- 0.008” from the preset gap.
There shouldn't be anything inherently bad about regapping a platinum plug, but I guess a lot of people just did it the same way they used to and ended up chunking off the tips. Scratching a nickel alloy electrode isn't likely to affect the performance of the plug. Scraping off the platinum tip will.
Denso says use needle nose pliers or a gap tool, but be careful not to touch the center electrode or the porcelain. I think one issue with these thin-wire electrodes is that there's also not much between the ground electrode and the porcelain, so it's easy to damage the porcelain.
http://densoautoparts.com/spark-plug-installation
Yep that's it. Many a precious metal plug has been damaged by checking and adjusting them with some tools, if they don't look right I check them and use a tool on the ground electrode but my eyes are dam close for this sort of thing after doing so many thousands of plugs, no I cant see a couple of thousands difference but a bit more than that I sure can on most commonly used values.
We did a little project in school one time, the teacher was asking what effect close and wide plug gaps would have on engine performance and engine smoothness so we went and tried it.
Within about 0.05 either way there was very little difference on the dyno or perceived smoothness. This result mirrors some FSM that spec a gap range eg 0.28-0.32 which usually shows up in plug charts as just 0.30. Wider gaps had a real negative effect on misfire counts but the engine was noticeably smoother at idle, we didn't have OBD back then it was done on a scope, the easier to fire narrow gap showed no increase in misfire count but a noticeable roughness in the engine. These were standard plugs with a standard low voltage 20K coil, points and condenser, precious metal ones didn't exist for normal street cars back then.
There are engines where plug gap is more critical but this applies run of the mill non boosted engines, these engines may also benefit from indexing the plugs but I am not doing that either for normal street car.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I never check the new iridium plugs. Just install them and go. Never had a problem with any.
Same here, never bothered to check the gap and I've replaced many on many cars.
If they are pre-gapped and it's off, the manufacturer will have problems (typical lawsuit these days) you think they can afford it?
I never check the new iridium plugs. Just install them and go. Never had a problem with any.
Same here, never bothered to check the gap and I've replaced many on many cars.
If they are pre-gapped and it's off, the manufacturer will have problems (typical lawsuit these days) you think they can afford it?
Yes I do.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I never check the new iridium plugs. Just install them and go. Never had a problem with any.
Same here, never bothered to check the gap and I've replaced many on many cars.
If they are pre-gapped and it's off, the manufacturer will have problems (typical lawsuit these days) you think they can afford it?
Not likely to be a huge problem, but even NGK says it's good practice to check. The packaging could make a difference. Every single NGK or Denso plug I've bought came in an individual box with a cardboard or plastic sleeve to protect the electrode. The 4-packs were just one big box with four smaller boxes inside. I've seen other plugs sold in blister packs. I don't have a whole lot of familiarity with other plugs other than maybe a Champion lawn mower plug, and that was a single plug in a blister pack.
Quote:
https://www.ngk.com/learning-center/article/190/should-i-gap-my-plugs
Even if the preset Gap matches that required by your engine, it is always good practice to physically check the Gap as it may have shifted during transportation (not all spark plugs are packaged in a way that protects the firing end ).
I've never bought a plug that didn't specify a preset gap. NGK and Denso usually add something like a -11 to the part number to indicate a 1.1 mm gap. I've got a factory one from my wife's car, and the preset gap is definitely on the ceramic portion of the plug. I've looked up a similar part number, and there's one version that doesn't specify what the gap is supposed to be.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I never check the new iridium plugs. Just install them and go. Never had a problem with any.
Same here, never bothered to check the gap and I've replaced many on many cars.
If they are pre-gapped and it's off, the manufacturer will have problems (typical lawsuit these days) you think they can afford it?
Not likely to be a huge problem, but even NGK says it's good practice to check. The packaging could make a difference. Every single NGK or Denso plug I've bought came in an individual box with a cardboard or plastic sleeve to protect the electrode. The 4-packs were just one big box with four smaller boxes inside. I've seen other plugs sold in blister packs. I don't have a whole lot of familiarity with other plugs other than maybe a Champion lawn mower plug, and that was a single plug in a blister pack.
Quote:
https://www.ngk.com/learning-center/article/190/should-i-gap-my-plugs
Even if the preset Gap matches that required by your engine, it is always good practice to physically check the Gap as it may have shifted during transportation (not all spark plugs are packaged in a way that protects the firing end ).
I've never bought a plug that didn't specify a preset gap. NGK and Denso usually add something like a -11 to the part number to indicate a 1.1 mm gap. I've got a factory one from my wife's car, and the preset gap is definitely on the ceramic portion of the plug. I've looked up a similar part number, and there's one version that doesn't specify what the gap is supposed to be.
How do y'all CLOSE the gap on plugs? Some coppers I had for my Saturn were too wide and the parts guy said to bang them on the counter or wood, etc. I did this, IIRC for a few 30,000 mile sets since the spec was narrower than the plugs. But once I just installed as is and the engine was silky smooth. Maybe the larger gap was better OR the factory got the gaps more consistent than I could by hand.
Also, on OPE, when the plug still has life but has opened up- the gapping tools only seem to open the gap, not close it-IME.
On my truck, I put in Iridiums and gently checked one (1) plug at the parts counter and trusted the rest to be spec, IIRC.
Also, on OPE, when the plug still has life but has opened up- the gapping tools only seem to open the gap, not close it-IME.
On my truck, I put in Iridiums and gently checked one (1) plug at the parts counter and trusted the rest to be spec, IIRC.
Precious metal plugs go in as-is.
I run NGK coppers in my MG, and as I've gone through various electronic ignition systems and coils I've gone between .025 and .040(currently running at .035).
Not too long ago, I patched together a friend's '97 Prizm enough for it to get her through the end of grad school(May). I diagnosed a bad ignition coil(car wouldn't start at all, coil was open circuit) but while I was at it threw in some new plugs, wires, and a cap and rotor. I did it in two sessions-the coil and plugs(NGK copper-remember only milking a few thousand more miles out of the car) came from NAPA since she needed the car fixed and running right away, but the cap, rotor, and wires came from Rock Auto(they would have cost more than the car's value from NAPA). Since it was cold and dark by the time I got around to changing plugs, I dropped them in as is. When I fitted the cap, rotor, and wires I pulled the plugs again and gapped them. They were .030, and the best I could find on a factory gap was .040. I opened them up, and it seemed to give the car a bit more pep(or as much as you can get from a '97 Prizm). The plugs I pulled were probably original to the car and were at .090.
I run NGK coppers in my MG, and as I've gone through various electronic ignition systems and coils I've gone between .025 and .040(currently running at .035).
Not too long ago, I patched together a friend's '97 Prizm enough for it to get her through the end of grad school(May). I diagnosed a bad ignition coil(car wouldn't start at all, coil was open circuit) but while I was at it threw in some new plugs, wires, and a cap and rotor. I did it in two sessions-the coil and plugs(NGK copper-remember only milking a few thousand more miles out of the car) came from NAPA since she needed the car fixed and running right away, but the cap, rotor, and wires came from Rock Auto(they would have cost more than the car's value from NAPA). Since it was cold and dark by the time I got around to changing plugs, I dropped them in as is. When I fitted the cap, rotor, and wires I pulled the plugs again and gapped them. They were .030, and the best I could find on a factory gap was .040. I opened them up, and it seemed to give the car a bit more pep(or as much as you can get from a '97 Prizm). The plugs I pulled were probably original to the car and were at .090.
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Globalksp
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Most of these OEM "iridium" plugs are actually iridium on the center electrode and a platinum puck fused to the ground electrode. It seems kind of odd that these small precious metal electrodes improve on a bunch of things, but they do work pretty well. It's pretty basic - the platinum/iridium gets hot and self cleans, the clearest path is through those little tips, and these tiny pieces of metal resist erosion. It seems to avoid having the spark fire through the surface of the nickel alloy, which is probably the main reason for erosion of standard (I refuse to call them "copper") plugs.
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Most of these OEM "iridium" plugs are actually iridium on the center electrode and a platinum puck fused to the ground electrode. It seems kind of odd that these small precious metal electrodes improve on a bunch of things, but they do work pretty well. It's pretty basic - the platinum/iridium gets hot and self cleans, the clearest path is through those little tips, and these tiny pieces of metal resist erosion. It seems to avoid having the spark fire through the surface of the nickel alloy, which is probably the main reason for erosion of standard (I refuse to call them "copper") plugs.
Gap check-why not?
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Globalksp
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Most of these OEM "iridium" plugs are actually iridium on the center electrode and a platinum puck fused to the ground electrode. It seems kind of odd that these small precious metal electrodes improve on a bunch of things, but they do work pretty well. It's pretty basic - the platinum/iridium gets hot and self cleans, the clearest path is through those little tips, and these tiny pieces of metal resist erosion. It seems to avoid having the spark fire through the surface of the nickel alloy, which is probably the main reason for erosion of standard (I refuse to call them "copper") plugs.
All plugs including Iridiums have a copper core. No plugs have copper electrodes.
Originally Posted By: Globalksp
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Most of these OEM "iridium" plugs are actually iridium on the center electrode and a platinum puck fused to the ground electrode. It seems kind of odd that these small precious metal electrodes improve on a bunch of things, but they do work pretty well. It's pretty basic - the platinum/iridium gets hot and self cleans, the clearest path is through those little tips, and these tiny pieces of metal resist erosion. It seems to avoid having the spark fire through the surface of the nickel alloy, which is probably the main reason for erosion of standard (I refuse to call them "copper") plugs.
All plugs including Iridiums have a copper core. No plugs have copper electrodes.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Gap check-why not?
It's not necessarily why not, but how. A lot of people are used to old school plugs where you could just jam an old-fashioned round tapered gap checker into the gap, and would expand a gap using the little bottle-opener style regapping hole. If you put a few scratches on the nickel alloy electrodes, it's no big deal since they tolerate scratches pretty well. However, the iridium or platinum wires/pucks are relatively brittle and will break off with enough direct mechanical force. They can withstand millions of explosions and super-hot sparks, but not forcing a piece of metal against the puck/wire.
I'm not implying you don't already know this.
Gap check-why not?
It's not necessarily why not, but how. A lot of people are used to old school plugs where you could just jam an old-fashioned round tapered gap checker into the gap, and would expand a gap using the little bottle-opener style regapping hole. If you put a few scratches on the nickel alloy electrodes, it's no big deal since they tolerate scratches pretty well. However, the iridium or platinum wires/pucks are relatively brittle and will break off with enough direct mechanical force. They can withstand millions of explosions and super-hot sparks, but not forcing a piece of metal against the puck/wire.
I'm not implying you don't already know this.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Globalksp
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Most of these OEM "iridium" plugs are actually iridium on the center electrode and a platinum puck fused to the ground electrode. It seems kind of odd that these small precious metal electrodes improve on a bunch of things, but they do work pretty well. It's pretty basic - the platinum/iridium gets hot and self cleans, the clearest path is through those little tips, and these tiny pieces of metal resist erosion. It seems to avoid having the spark fire through the surface of the nickel alloy, which is probably the main reason for erosion of standard (I refuse to call them "copper") plugs.
All plugs including Iridiums have a copper core. No plugs have copper electrodes.
You'd be surprised how many supposed "experts" think that the electrodes materials exposed to the combustion chamber are made of copper. Copper would of course be gone in less than an hour it it was the exposed part of the electrode.
Quote:
https://www.carid.com/articles/types-of-spark-plugs.html
Copper Spark Plugs
Sometimes referred to as "standard" or "normal", copper-tipped spark plugs are lower in cost and have the shortest lifespan due to copper’s naturally tendency to erode away over time. However, their value lies in the ability of copper to conduct electricity better than any other type of material used on spark plug tips. As a result, copper-tipped plugs run cooler, and deliver more power in performance driving applications without reaching overheated temperatures which reduce power and shorten spark plug life.
http://carandbiker.co/best-spark-plugs-reviewed/
Copper Spark Plug
This type of spark plug is typically referred to as a standard version of a spark plug. The reason that these variations shine is that the copper on the device is great for conducting the electricity; in fact, it is the best conductor that you can have on a spark plug. If you are looking for an efficient spark plug, the copper tipped plugs are the best option. Since the electricity is easily conducted, the spark plug will not overheat as quickly, which means that the life of the spark plug will be extended. Copper does naturally erode, so the lifespan of this type of spark plug will always be limited, which is why they are often very inexpensive to purchase. These copper tipped spark plugs will typically last between 20,000 miles and 40,000 miles before a problem arises.
There is of course a whole lot of wrong that becomes "common knowledge". One is that copper is used in the core because it's the best electrical conductor (outside of silver). It is, but that means little when nearly all plugs contain a resistor to reduce electromagnetic interference, and the gap of air creates way more "resistance" than the plug. Copper is used to conduct heat from the core.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Globalksp
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I just changed the plugs on my '07 Fit with the factory spec NGK Laser Iridiums. Checked the gap and all were good except for one which was at .065" instead of the recommended .045-.051.
And here are plugs out of that Fit with 90,000 miles on them:
Most of these OEM "iridium" plugs are actually iridium on the center electrode and a platinum puck fused to the ground electrode. It seems kind of odd that these small precious metal electrodes improve on a bunch of things, but they do work pretty well. It's pretty basic - the platinum/iridium gets hot and self cleans, the clearest path is through those little tips, and these tiny pieces of metal resist erosion. It seems to avoid having the spark fire through the surface of the nickel alloy, which is probably the main reason for erosion of standard (I refuse to call them "copper") plugs.
All plugs including Iridiums have a copper core. No plugs have copper electrodes.
You'd be surprised how many supposed "experts" think that the electrodes materials exposed to the combustion chamber are made of copper. Copper would of course be gone in less than an hour it it was the exposed part of the electrode.
Quote:
https://www.carid.com/articles/types-of-spark-plugs.html
Copper Spark Plugs
Sometimes referred to as "standard" or "normal", copper-tipped spark plugs are lower in cost and have the shortest lifespan due to copper’s naturally tendency to erode away over time. However, their value lies in the ability of copper to conduct electricity better than any other type of material used on spark plug tips. As a result, copper-tipped plugs run cooler, and deliver more power in performance driving applications without reaching overheated temperatures which reduce power and shorten spark plug life.
http://carandbiker.co/best-spark-plugs-reviewed/
Copper Spark Plug
This type of spark plug is typically referred to as a standard version of a spark plug. The reason that these variations shine is that the copper on the device is great for conducting the electricity; in fact, it is the best conductor that you can have on a spark plug. If you are looking for an efficient spark plug, the copper tipped plugs are the best option. Since the electricity is easily conducted, the spark plug will not overheat as quickly, which means that the life of the spark plug will be extended. Copper does naturally erode, so the lifespan of this type of spark plug will always be limited, which is why they are often very inexpensive to purchase. These copper tipped spark plugs will typically last between 20,000 miles and 40,000 miles before a problem arises.
There is of course a whole lot of wrong that becomes "common knowledge". One is that copper is used in the core because it's the best electrical conductor (outside of silver). It is, but that means little when nearly all plugs contain a resistor to reduce electromagnetic interference, and the gap of air creates way more "resistance" than the plug. Copper is used to conduct heat from the core.
First time out driving the Fit any distance with the new plugs and it's running rich. Nothing I can do about it at the moment as I'm em to route to DC and back. It seems to Ben running ok, but I can smell gasoline pretty distinctly. No tools on me either.
Once I get back, what are my best options? Inspect them all, of course. Replace all four plugs? I was gentle with torquing then down , maybe one isn't seated well enough? Thoughts?
Once I get back, what are my best options? Inspect them all, of course. Replace all four plugs? I was gentle with torquing then down , maybe one isn't seated well enough? Thoughts?
If you can smell gasoline that strongly, I doubt that it's simply due to plug issues. Even if the engine is running rich, the cat should take care of that, and so you shouldn't really smell the extra gas.
I'd be looking more at the fuel rail, injectors, fuel line, and/or pump. Is it possible you did something to the fuel rail or an injector while you were addressing the plugs?
I'd be looking more at the fuel rail, injectors, fuel line, and/or pump. Is it possible you did something to the fuel rail or an injector while you were addressing the plugs?
It's possible, but not probable. I looked under the hood, but saw no moisture anywhere and it didn't smell of gasoline. The car is[\i] running well, will check fuel mileage when I fill up on my return trip. If everything checks out plug wise, I'll start digging deeper. Thanks for the insights.
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