Do engineers not make good money anymore?

[SC Maintenance]

This post has legs.

So I took the time to punch my starting wage out of college almost 27 years ago and in today's dollars I started at just under $70K. I was an "E1" and started at the very bottom of the range. You could go up to "E5" which had a range of like triple - I sort of remember it being in the mid 6 figures back then, but I did work with a number of E5's and they all told me that after you hit mid-range on the scale its virtually impossible to get any real raise. A lot of engineers wanted to be managers. I actually took that route myself sort of.

My kid thats graduating this year tells me that most new engineering job postings start between $60-70K, so a slight decrease maybe? I am told there are a few companies that pay more to start. She has a friend that went out West and got a lot more to start, but COL is very high.

 

[andrew_j]

Engineering paid well when I graduated in 1990.

My first year salary was same as four years total in state tuition. My home I purchased at age 21 requiring 3% down was triple my starting salary. I believe a decent new car like Honda Accord was around half my starting salary.

I don’t believe it’s the case now at all on those factors.

 

[supton]

Engineering paid well when I graduated in 1990.

My first year salary was same as four years total in state tuition. My home I purchased at age 21 requiring 3% down was triple my starting salary. I believe a decent new car like Honda Accord was around half my starting salary.

I don’t believe it’s the case now at all on those factors.

Looks like starting EE is around $80k in the Northeast. 70 to 85, it's a range. About what it was when I started in 2000 (inflation adjusted). Hard to say without diving deep, and dependent on location and job. But I feel like pay has been flat, when inflation adjusted--neither good nor bad? just my uniformed impression.

Median home price is now $500k in NH so it sure seems worse than in 1990. [I think I kept my first home to about 2x my income--but I was buying below median.] But a new car is supposedly doable around $40k (hard to believe!), assuming one means "car" and not "a cool SUV unlike the loser vehicles my parents drove when I was a kid".

At least for housing, pay hasn't kept up with the cost of living.

 

[PandaBear]

Housing cost went up like crazy in the last 30 years. When I graduate the typical starting pay was 50-55k, and rent was like $1200/mo for a 2 bedroom apt (or around $600/room), and a house cost like 400-500k here. Now the new grad pay is around 110k, rent is like $3k/mo, and the same house cost 2M.

I think if you look internationally, the real estate prices have collapsed in Europe and Asia (except Taiwan). In the US we are still high for better or worse.

The problem I'm seeing in the near future is, only the "magnificent 7" are paying very well and all other companies can't pay more than peanuts without hurting their own bottom line.

About dentists: the insurance is paying so low only the PPO plan will pay enough for the practice to survive, unless they are dishonest and try to put a ton of work on your perfectly fine teeth. This is happening to chiropractors and small mom and pop clinics with no bargaining powers. We are seeing soldouts to PE in lasik clinics and everyone consolidating to a few major hospital groups and pharmacies who got the balls to decline Blue Cross completely.

"You own nothing and you'll be happy"

 

[supton]

I think if you look internationally, the real estate prices have collapsed in Europe and Asia

Is that from housing not inflating? would not have guessed that trend, it somehow falling behind income. More housing being built, or less demand?

The problem I'm seeing in the near future is, only the "magnificent 7" are paying very well and all other companies can't pay more than peanuts without hurting their own bottom line.

Race to the bottom. Outsourced to make the most of cheaper overseas labor. Went lean and mean on manufacturing. Controlled all costs best as could and held the line through the 90's and into the 2000's. Nothing left to cut or optimize--but still have to compete against every other company. Only if customers can be convinced to trip over themselves in buying your product could one risk increasing benefits--and then, as we all know, all fads are temporary.

 

[PandaBear]

Is that from housing not inflating? would not have guessed that trend, it somehow falling behind income. More housing being built, or less demand?


Race to the bottom. Outsourced to make the most of cheaper overseas labor. Went lean and mean on manufacturing. Controlled all costs best as could and held the line through the 90's and into the 2000's. Nothing left to cut or optimize--but still have to compete against every other company. Only if customers can be convinced to trip over themselves in buying your product could one risk increasing benefits--and then, as we all know, all fads are temporary.

The biggest reason for real estate collapse (not just housing, but retail, office, and industrial buildings) was due to too much leverage and monetary supply. QE from US caused international QE to offset the exchange rate and then the extra money supply rushed into everything you cannot see. People keep buying up real estate because they worried that if you don't buy soon it would be even more expensive and less affordable in the future. The flippers made a lot of money in the last 20 years, but many lose them all in the last 4. The young people in S Korea used to run up credit card debts to keep up with the Jones and suddenly the trend flipped and they started to live as frugal as possible and refuse to get married or have kids.

Out sourcing would continue but they don't save as much as they used to. Geopolitical risk is causing problem from China and India is not as trust worthy as before (check out what happen to Samsung in India). Vietnam is probably the only promising one in the next 20 years and still have a young labor force. Japan is becoming cheap but they are short of young people and have to import labors from South East Asia themselves. S Korea would have the same problem as Japan very soon as well.

The major problem with "outsourcing" would not be products, it would be your consumer facing "services". Your IT, tech support, customer service, etc will very soon be outsourced there via zoom and team like calls. We are seeing a lot of problem in non top paying companies trying to source from India and keep only 40-60 year old employees to coach them. What would happen to the company's skilled labor after these people retire? Where would the young people work? How would the quality of their products afterward? Look at Boeing and Cisco to get the answer. BTW, the high quality foreign workers in their countries tend to immigrate to Europe and America eventually as well, because they too want better standard of living and higher pay.

 

[Pew]

The problem I'm seeing in the near future is, only the "magnificent 7" are paying very well and all other companies can't pay more than peanuts without hurting their own bottom line.

That's what we're seeing right now in the construction/engineering/environmental side. We have these massive companies like TYlin, EXP, Ardmore, etc that can pay their employees very well and can low ball contract lower than most smaller companies because the large firms can still make profit from the sheer number of their contracts. From there, everything trickles down; so one large firm gets 20 contracts vs 10 small firms who will get work and employ other support roles like receptionists, IT, cleaning crews, etc.
Kind of like what I like to call the "Walmart affect" to local mom and pop places.

Then adding on other expenses like the astronomical cost of office rent and insurance...

 

[PandaBear]

That's what we're seeing right now in the construction/engineering/environmental side. We have these massive companies like TYlin, EXP, Ardmore, etc that can pay their employees very well and can low ball contract lower than most smaller companies because the large firms can still make profit from the sheer number of their contracts. From there, everything trickles down; so one large firm gets 20 contracts vs 10 small firms who will get work and employ other support roles like receptionists, IT, cleaning crews, etc.
Kind of like what I like to call the "Walmart affect" to local mom and pop places.

That's typical for all industries until only 3-6 large companies are left.

 

[Pew]

That's typical for all industries until only 3-6 large companies are left.

Yea, the more I go through my career, the now I'm seeing that now. All the large companies outsource their over-the-phone support to India or to a 3rd party big IT consulting company so they never get the same people who learn the company and employees.

 

[Dave Hess]

Engineering paid well when I graduated in 1990.

My first year salary was same as four years total in state tuition. My home I purchased at age 21 requiring 3% down was triple my starting salary. I believe a decent new car like Honda Accord was around half my starting salary.

I don’t believe it’s the case now at all on those factors.

Yep. That why I helped with down payment for my kids’ home.

No way they could do it today by themselves.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Is that from housing not inflating? would not have guessed that trend, it somehow falling behind income. More housing being built, or less demand?

As @PandaBear said, but also shrinking demographics also. Fewer children means no need for housing. There are places in Europe if your young and even somewhat educated they will all but give you housing to move there. There are plenty of people predicting that here in some future years due to the boomer generation bulge, but it also might get sucked up with immigration - that is what Canada is doing and one of the reasons there housing is so expensive.

We are seeing a lot of problem in non top paying companies trying to source from India and keep only 40-60 year old employees to coach them.

I have just started seeing that here in industrial automation. I recently was working with a large plant here in the Southeast and everything had to be run by a Engineering Group in India before they could get approvals for purchase. It was not a Indian Company, it was a large US company.

 

[Dave Hess]

MA also has highest housing costs and childcare costs by a far margin. A factor needs to applied as many dentists work in cheaper states and areas driving down numbers.

Why does MA has the highest childcare costs ?

Just curious…

 

[Rmay635703]

Why does MA has the highest childcare costs ?

Just curious…

Everything in MA is the highest cost, so anything tangental costs more as well.

Generally the more “housing/real estate “ costs in an area, the more childcare costs.

 

[GMFan]

Here is some info for 2023.

View attachment 245201

I have worked as an electrical engineer for 15 years and I've had my engineering license for the past 10 years. These are fairly accurate starting, mid-level and senior engineer salaries in my field. I design the electrical power, lighting and fire alarm systems in buildings including healthcare, high-rise, industrial, data centers, manufacturing, etc. Contractors build the buildings off of our drawings. Our firm does mechanical, electrical plumbing and fire protection engineering consulting services (typically referred to as MEP Engineering in the Architectural, Construction and Engineering (AEC) industry). Larger firms may also have structural and civil engineers on staff.

You probably won't break $175k/year at a firm unless you are a Principal with the firm and get profit sharing, or a Partner/ owner. Nearly all firms will require Partners to "buy-in" to the firm and are offered a % or fraction of a % to purchase each year with the idea that you then get profit sharing on what the firm profits. Typically you only make Partner if you work 70 hour weeks, never see your family or kids, get a divorce and put your "sweat equity" in for 20 years to where you "pay your dues" to get the ability to be offered a Partner position with the firm. Once you make Partner you can basically coast and make tons of money as long as you bring in work for the firm. Partners can make millions a year. Otherwise if you don't want to work your life away you accept your lot in life and work yourself up to a senior engineer position until you retire making a decent living, but having a life outside of work. There are both "tiers" of these people at nearly all firms. The family men and the company men.

There is lot of stress, liability and responsibility for an engineer to stamp drawings for the money, but I've never been unemployed and there is always more work than we know what to do with. The money you can make in banking/finance is way more and you don't have people's lives on the line or risk getting sued if you make a mistake. The field can be like "Mad Men" sometimes as it is highly male dominated with strong personalities and opinions. It is competitive, high stress and fast paced but seeing something you designed on paper be constructed in real life and seeing a project to completion is rewarding. I've been in mines, tunnels hundreds of feet underground, basements and roofs of skyscrapers, semiconductor manufacturing plants, on top of cranes, in aqueducts, on bridges, you name it I've seen it. Seeing stuff most people take for granted and seeing how it all works is my favorite part of the field.

I guess all that is to say most engineers do it because its what we love to do. Do not become an engineer (or anything for that matter) just for money.

 

[SevenBizzos]

My employer had a tough time filing a Civil Engineer position. They posted it at $155k and no one would accept because we do not offer "work from home". We had to fill it internally with someone with only five years experience at $30k less.

 

[andrew_j]

Why does MA has the highest childcare costs ?

Just curious…

Good question , they top out at average $24k/child/year and next most expensive is CA at $16k/year.

Many factors including more staff required by regulation in student ratios then majority of states. Also another major factor people/both parents in MA tend to work more on average overall so daycare hours are longer approaching 10 hrs vs less in many other places.

Also income levels are quite high so it bumps the average of what people willing to spend and level of places.

https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/06/14/child-care-early-education-costs-massachuestts

 

[Dave Hess]

I know some people in the $120-130K range with an associates degree in Electronics.
That’s being at top of the range with OT.

4 year engineering degrees are great to to break the $200K range and climb the ranks.

 

[javacontour]

I’ve mentioned it multiple times I work on a team of 7 and 5/7 wfh. They are hardly productive and attending kids’ functions, vet appointments, doctor, car repair. All under the umbrella “my job gets done.” They also offload any in person and hq functions to the other two of us.

Like I said—I took delight in finding out they are on purpose cut off from corporate communications.

Anyway, in high cost of living areas, do not discount peoples’ drive to work hard to make ends meet. One of my wife’s friends lived in Daly City, CA (ended up moving to Vegas). She worked 3 jobs to pay the mortgage.

I do field service and I run into this all the time.

I'll get paged out to do a task because it's "mission critical"

I ask my contact to check my work once it's done and I get a text back, "I'm in my car on the way home, contact XYZ for validation..."

The industry has changed in the last 25 years.

A generation ago, customers had specific people who "owned" and administered specific systems. An SA may have a dozen or so systems they were primary and maybe a similar number where they were secondary administrator. They knew the systems, the applications, how to get downtime, where they are in the data center, etc.

Today, it's all tickets. No one owns anything. You show up and call or message their incident management team and then wait for them to find someone to work the ticket. The person you get may not know any more about their application or configuration than you do.

And, if they are off-shore, good luck making contact before hand. Days can go by coordinating data center access as you reach out to them, but their number starts with +91 So 12 hours later (give or take) you hear back and the cycle continues.


Sometimes I think it's easier to coordinate and communicate with a spacecraft in orbit around Jupiter than it is with some customers and their IMS.


The systems in place today seem to set things up for failure. Or at least make success even harder. Just one thing to consider, time specification. I don't know how many calls I've set up for 18:00 US/Central, agreed to by the customer and I'm getting a call at 17:00 because the remote contact doesn't realize I'm not in US/Eastern.

That's just one example of the "sand in the gears" and it doesn't seem to be getting better.

I've tried to place myself in the shoes of my off-shore contacts. Many are not about to admit they don't know something when there are hundreds lined up to take the job if that person can't do it.

It's less personal, little to no ownership on the customer side.

I feel sorry for the humans stuck in the process.

I see retirement in a few years. Probably a step-down job and then full retirement.

 

[John105]

I do field service and I run into this all the time.

I'll get paged out to do a task because it's "mission critical"

I ask my contact to check my work once it's done and I get a text back, "I'm in my car on the way home, contact XYZ for validation..."

The industry has changed in the last 25 years.

A generation ago, customers had specific people who "owned" and administered specific systems. An SA may have a dozen or so systems they were primary and maybe a similar number where they were secondary administrator. They knew the systems, the applications, how to get downtime, where they are in the data center, etc.

Today, it's all tickets. No one owns anything. You show up and call or message their incident management team and then wait for them to find someone to work the ticket. The person you get may not know any more about their application or configuration than you do.

And, if they are off-shore, good luck making contact before hand. Days can go by coordinating data center access as you reach out to them, but their number starts with +91 So 12 hours later (give or take) you hear back and the cycle continues.


Sometimes I think it's easier to coordinate and communicate with a spacecraft in orbit around Jupiter than it is with some customers and their IMS.


The systems in place today seem to set things up for failure. Or at least make success even harder. Just one thing to consider, time specification. I don't know how many calls I've set up for 18:00 US/Central, agreed to by the customer and I'm getting a call at 17:00 because the remote contact doesn't realize I'm not in US/Eastern.

That's just one example of the "sand in the gears" and it doesn't seem to be getting better.

I've tried to place myself in the shoes of my off-shore contacts. Many are not about to admit they don't know something when there are hundreds lined up to take the job if that person can't do it.

It's less personal, little to no ownership on the customer side.

I feel sorry for the humans stuck in the process.

I see retirement in a few years. Probably a step-down job and then full retirement.

Wow you depicted things very accurately.

On my team 5/7 work from home. It’s normal for them to be unreachable, so that leaves myself and a coworker as the go to people. It’s not as blatant. When they first wfh they would openly say I’m getting my car fixed, at the dentist, kids school, etc. with the sentiment now they suddenly simply don’t offer any explanation why they couldn’t be reached. It’s like an umbrella coverage, since you 2 guys work so hard in the office, our job is done in 1-3 hours and frankly we get our jobs done

But what you say happens even in financial
And their portals. Just recently Citi paid my Cc with autopay, even though I manually paid already and it’s supposed to reduce the autopay by what’s paid manually. It would be impossible to fight it.

This week, my LinkedIn connections went down 600. I googled and a guy said his went down 20k and it’s the purging of inactive and fake accts. Cool I don’t want that either but wasn’t aware that many were linked to me.

Later that day, it went back to what it was before. Something happened, but likely nobody knows what. Accountability.

 

[javacontour]

Wow you depicted things very accurately.

On my team 5/7 work from home. It’s normal for them to be unreachable, so that leaves myself and a coworker as the go to people. It’s not as blatant. When they first wfh they would openly say I’m getting my car fixed, at the dentist, kids school, etc. with the sentiment now they suddenly simply don’t offer any explanation why they couldn’t be reached. It’s like an umbrella coverage, since you 2 guys work so hard in the office, our job is done in 1-3 hours and frankly we get our jobs done

But what you say happens even in financial
And their portals. Just recently Citi paid my Cc with autopay, even though I manually paid already and it’s supposed to reduce the autopay by what’s paid manually. It would be impossible to fight it.

This week, my LinkedIn connections went down 600. I googled and a guy said his went down 20k and it’s the purging of inactive and fake accts. Cool I don’t want that either but wasn’t aware that many were linked to me.

Later that day, it went back to what it was before. Something happened, but likely nobody knows what. Accountability.

I've been doing this for a generation. I've lived the changes.

On the plus side, sometimes I can resolve an issue without leaving the home.

I recall a case where the customer wanted us to replace a Cisco switch in an Engineered System. They couldn't reach the switch. At least not directly. They could get to in from components inside the system, so it was accessible. Long story short, the management network was inaccessible externally, but one could log into the servers via the Client Access network and then reach the management network.

About 90 minutes into the Zoom / Teams whatever it was, we found out the upstream switch was downing the connection because it received unexpected STP traffic. So, not a hardware issue, a configuration issue.

There were about to send me from STL to Iowa to replace a switch. They still wanted me to go. Since we could get to the switch from inside the Engineered system, I was able to get a remote session, turn off STP, SAVE the running-config as the startup-config and the upstream switch admin brought the port up.

It was switch with a single uplink so no STP is a valid and in my opinion, preferred solution, KISS.

So, trip saved by remote intervention.

So it's not all bad. But the issues about finding someone to work the tickets, etc still apply.