difference between a supercharger and a turbocharger

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krholm
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posted October 09, 2002 09:01 AM
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My question: What is the difference between a supercharger and a turbocharger? krholm
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Posts: 14 | From: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged
 
Patman
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posted October 09, 2002 10:31 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by krholm:
My question: What is the difference between a supercharger and a turbocharger? krholm
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to answer this, however, a turbo is run by exhaust gases (they spin the turbo, which in turn compresses the incoming air to the engine) while a supercharger is belt driven right off the crankshaft.
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Posts: 1839 | From: Mississauga, Ontario | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged
 
That is correct. There are some functional differences in each that should be considered before deciding on which to install.
As Bob stated, a turbocharger is operated by the useless exhaust gas which turns an impeller(a fan) which is connected to the compressor impeller(another fan at the other end of a rotating shaft). This spins at extremely high RPMs ( sometimes as high as 30,000!)and compresses the incoming air-gas charge making it more dense, thereby increasing its energy potential. The absolute best part of this is that this extra horsepower is totally free!(except for the expense of the turbo itself).Its not a perfect solution though: There are two major performance drawbacks to turbocharging. Primary is Turbo-Lag. When the demand for extra power is made by 'sticking your foot in it', the response is not instantaneous.The turbo will not produce any noticeable extra power until the impeller can 'spin-up' to a sufficient speed. This waiting period, sometimes vey annoying, is called 'turbo-lag. Second is the tremendous amount of excess heat that a turbo produces. This extreme heat can cause a lot of pre-ignition(pinging), so the engines compression is generally lowered to compensate, which in turn cause more turbo-lag!
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The common solution is to add an 'intercooler' in-line with the turbo. An intercooler is simply an air-to-air heat exchanger, kinda' like a radiator for the air! This will usually bring the super-heated turbo'd air charge down about 100 degrees, reducing the pinging. This also allow more compression, for less turbo lag. The overall size of the turbo, as well as the 'pitch' (angle) of the vanes on the impeller determine how fast a turbo can 'spool-up' to full charge. a 'fast' turbo produces power more quickly, with less overall total power, and a 'large' turbo produces more top end power-eventually.
Because of the extreme heat generated, turbos need careful and timely maintenece. Lubrication is key. For most average drivers, turbos are way too 'finicky' and fragile.
Now a supercharger works with the same principal as a turbo, but instead of using the 'free' exhaust gas to turn the impeller, it is turned by an engine driven belt, as Bob stated earlier. A supercharger operates at RPMs that are much closer to an engines RPM, sometimes exactly the same.Because of this,and the fact that a supercharger is always turning if the engine is on, there is just about no noticeble 'lag'. The extra power is almost instantaneous. The biggest percieved disadvantage to a supercharger is that the extra power is not totally 'free'. There is a rather large amount of engine-power needed to turn the supercharger before it makes any extra power. I know of one set of spec's, only because I own one( ok, my wife owns it, but I fix it!)
On an 89' Thunderbird SuperCoupe ( a supercharged and intercooled 3.8 litre V-6)the engine is rated at 215 horsepower, compared to 145 horses for the same, normally aspirated engine in the standard 'birds.
According to FORD spec's, although the horsepower is 215, it takes over 60 horsepower just to run the supercharger! I believe thisis called 'parasitic horsepower loss'.
It seems that turbocharging has really fallen out of favor with most hot-rodders, and supercharging is gaining more and more poplarity every day. I can see why.One of my nuttier employees has a 94 Mustang GT, came stock with a 5.0 HO, 225 horses. It was chassis dyno'd @ 188 (rear wheel) horsepower, which is about normal for that car. Over the years he has spent about a gajillion of his hard-earned dollars on this car, and a 'Kenne Bell' supercharger is just one of the many mods he has made to the motor. Last year, the car was chassis dyno'd at 550 horspower!Thats at the rear wheels!
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Thats not the true power though, because the dyno was not capable of handling ant more than that! That car is freakin' fast!And it is a fully functioning, smooth idling, street legal, daily driven street car! Unbelivable. Whew!
Anyhoo...Don't know if you wanted the whole history of the world, but there you go!
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[ December 03, 2002, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: cobravenom71 ]
 
Opposite here in Oz. Turbo's are everywhere, mainly WRX and Nissan 200SX. Fords new BA 'Barra' Falcon (just won car of the year) has an XR6 Turbo version. 4.0 litre 6 cyl detuned to 240KW (322HP) reviews say is far better than the opposition Holden Commodore w/5.7 litre GM LS1. Interestingly Ford Oz recently looked at a number of U.S. engines for use in the re-releae of the Falcon GT including the supercharged 5.4 Cobra R and F150 Lightning engines but performance was deemed 'unacceptable'. Ford Oz decided to build their own. Using the 5.4 block from the Navigator coupled to the unreleased Ford U231 4 valve quad cam alloy heads with local XR8 intake/pistons and Cobra R spec cam, 10.5:1 comp etc to achieve the 400+HP, 380+ ft Lbs torque required to beat the HSV GTS. Should do the job until the rumoured hotter GTHO (last seen in 1973) returns.
 
Then of course , there is the new Mustang Cobra with its 4.6 litre superchatged, intercooled engine. 390 Horses,390 torque.
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Thats pretty amazing for a new factory engine.
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And those are 'net' ratings, whereas the old 'muscle-cars' were generally rated with 'gross' horsepower, which makes the older cars seem to have an apparent advantage in the ratings.
As an example a 1971 Boss 351 engine(Ford) was factory rated at 330 HP (gross)
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, and the nearly identical engine was rated at 266 HP(net) in 1972. What would todays 390 net HP be back in the 'gross' HP days? Probably around 475 'gross'!
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No full production muscle-car was ever rated that high back in the hay-day. Technology marches on!
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That new Mustang is amazing! I'm an f-body fan, however I have owned Mustangs in the past (two different 1987 GTs, one of which had a Paxton supercharger and ran low 12s)

With just a simple pulley change on their blowers, and exhaust mods, these things are running high 11s on drag radials! Totally amazing! A Z06 Vette will run high 11s with just simple mods (a friend of mine runs 11.6 with his with only an airbox change, MAFT and ET streets) but they also cost a lot more too.

I need more power! My 95 Formula is bone stock, and has run a respectible 13.89 at 98.2, however after owning a couple of 12 second cars (the forementioned Mustang, and my 98 Formula-which ran 12.68 at 110.6 with just simple mods) this car feels like a lead sled to me.
 
cobravenom71,

I never thought I'd see anyone else from Kissimmee here. Small internet eh?
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I have a few thing's I'd like to mention. First off the power from a turbo isnt exactly "free". A turbo is a huge exhaust restriction which costs HP. Of course all of the extra air it forces in more than makes up for it (else it wouldnt be called a power adder
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)

Second not all superchargers provide instant boost. This is true for a positive displacement blower (like an Roots style) but most aftermarket superchargers (Vortech,ATI,Paxton,Powerdyne, etc) are centrifigal units. In this case its not uncommon to have zero boost until 3000rpm+. Although the speed of he blower is directly proportional to the speed of the motor at low RPM's the blower isnt pushing enough air to produce any boost at all.

This brings me to another common misconception, "Superchargers are for low end grunt and turbo's only work at high rpm."

Wrong, totally backwards. Turbo's are load dependant, not RPM dependant. If you put enough load on the motor its entirely possible to make boost at low RPM's. In fact if setup correctly a turbo will almost always be capable of more low end torque than centifigally supercharged motor. Just take a look at all the turbo'ed heavy duty trucks out there, if turbo's didnt make torque then they wouldnt be used there.

Now the other hand a centrifigal supercharger is entirely dependant on RPM to make boost, the faster you spin it the more power you make (to a degree).

As you can tell im a big fan of turbo's
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IMO their only real disavantages are cost and complexity vs. a supercharger. Now if someone would come out with a good turbo kit for my car I think I would have to sell a kidney or something to get it
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Jason
93 Trans Am
 
I also owned a turbo car, my first brand new car was a turbo actually, a 1988 Dodge Shadow ES Turbo. Those turbos made a good bit of low end torque, it actually made it's peak at 2400rpm! The boost came on very quick on that car actually. It made that car feel like it was powered by a large V6 actually.
 
Soma07
Correct if a turbo motor can be spooled up they will leave pretty hard. Todays turbo systems are ok but in the past before FI and computers it was a ***** to get the correct amount of fuel to them on boost with a carbed motor,,the blow through being the ticket for the street but very hard on the carb parts as one might imagine. Draw through was best way for racing but again had to use a Hobbs switch and direct nozzles to introduce more fuel- It does not take any power to run them though.
A roots type Blower takes plenty of power to drive them,but plenty of power is made.Early Nitrous systems with the plate between the blowe and the manifold really showed little gain,most from cooling the incoming charge

Speaking of power loss. It takes 30hp to run a Vertex Magneto 8k rpm.

The street hotrodders that like the Pete Jackson style cam drive gears with it's upper,lower and two idler gears lose 10 hp on a small mouse motor when used. At high rpm the harmonics can actually break the camshaft

Want a good read on harmonics search Stoddard and Polydyne- this study of the 5 vibrating masses of the valve train lead to the invention of the unsymmetrical cam lobe which helps contol the dynamic deflection of the valve train and does other positives as well
In the old days it took 5 days to plot the profile of a cam by calculator,,thats just the opening ramp or side of the lobe, now the Fourier series " the sine and cosine of Trig" to mathematicaly describe a curve is speeded up with the computers,,considerably :)I think Polynominals were used as well

Oopps got off topic
 
Mr.07 (Jason), I agree with everything you say about Turbo's and Scrgr's. I tend to get 'wordy', so I try to keep the posts short(er). Sometimes the oversimplification and generalization of things doesn't make for a 100% accurate description. Oh well, I tried.
My e-mail is on the little 'thingy' at the top, so feel free to drop me a line, and maybe I'll see ya' at some of the cruises here in the Orlando area.
 
I'm a turbo fan as well. It's what turns my 90 hp VW into a beast. But also allows me to get 50+mpg on the highway.

BTW my 90hp 1.9L Diesel, makes over 155 Ft/lbs of torque at 1900rpms. reline is 3500.
 
quote:

Originally posted by msparks:
I'm a turbo fan as well. It's what turns my 90 hp VW into a beast. But also allows me to get 50+mpg on the highway.

BTW my 90hp 1.9L Diesel, makes over 155 Ft/lbs of torque at 1900rpms. reline is 3500.


I believe that most turbo charged cars call for better oil. I know mine calls for Synthetic. Also amsoil changes their recommendation for turbo charged cars instead of the 1 year 25000, they recommend 6 months or 2 times the recommended interval from the manufacture.

[ December 06, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: msparks ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by dragboat:
The street hotrodders that like the Pete Jackson style cam drive gears with it's upper,lower and two idler gears lose 10 hp on a small mouse motor when used. At high rpm the harmonics can actually break the camshaft

Wow, that I didnt know. I always thought gear drives were the ultimate as far as timing sets went. I didnt realize they used that much power and could cause camshaft carnage.

On the motors I'm used to dealing with (LT1's) gear drives aren't used at all but for other reasons. Apparently the noise they make interfere's with knock sensors. The only person I know of who's tried one went back to a chain because the PCM kept pulling timing because it thought it was detonating.

quote:

Originally posted by cobravenom71:
I tend to get 'wordy', so I try to keep the posts short(er). Sometimes the oversimplification and generalization of things doesn't make for a 100% accurate description. Oh well, I tried.

I completely understand, I do the same thing all the time. On most of the other boards I post on I usually keep my replies pretty short because most people dont appreciate the time and effort it takes to type out a meaningful, accurate response. I keep it brief and if they're interested in learning more they can always come back and ask another question. This board is the exception though, here the people are a little more mature (and intelligent) so I dont mind getting a little wordy if need be
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I'm sure I'll see you around sooner or later. I'm not real big on shows but I occasionally make it out to the Bowtie club show at the Steak n' Shake in Altamonte Springs.

Jason

[ December 07, 2002, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Soma07 ]
 
Yeah Jason, I agree with you. I like reading a thoughtful and detailed response to a question also. The simple answers usually leave out something important. This sight seems to be populated (mostly) by those who's IQ's are probably high enough that they actually know what IQ means! Except for 'Monarch', of course.
 
soma07
Many Pete Jackson gear drives sold here in Oz because they are cheap and noisy, yes the owners want everybody to know they have 'gear drive'. Not for me thanks! (Summers Bros maybe)
 
There is a couple other design gear drives available,a 3 gear Milodon with the middle one being the idler and the old and preferred two gear set up sold by Iskendarian which requires a reverse rotation ground cam, These were needed in endurance racing yeas ago to keep the cam from retarding during the event along with the fact back in the days timing chains were known to break at constant 7k rpm. These days Cloyes makes a prestretched true roller chain that does the job quite well as opposed to the link belt style that's available..
I like a gear drive on a blower motor with a bunch of of overdrive or boost if preffered because the roaming at idle puts alot of slap on the chains . Locking the mag or distributor helps reduce the roaming.
Most of the hi-end stuff uses a belt these days,,bad medicine for a weekend Lake racer though

[ December 12, 2002, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
Weren't some the best rally cars using both super and turbo chargers back in the '80s?

I don't follow 4 wheel sports much but as I recall there were some pretty hot rally cars that combined the two technologies.
 
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