Diesel/gas fuel additive.

[bmwtechguy]

1040 Wrecker Man:

quote:

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Ethanol is less resistant to ignition so it has a tendency to cause pre-detonation.

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I disagree and think that alcohol is more resistant to detonation or preignition as shown by the 105 octane rating of the local E85 fuel here.

 

[1040 WreckerMan]

There are generally two compression rings, three or four on diesel engines. The rings, both the oil control ring and compression rings carry oil from the bottom of bore as they travel up. Running ULSD which have extremely poor lubricity, I didn't see any ring, piston, or cylinder wear out of the ordinary. What I did observe was a rash of injector failures and mechanical injection pump failures.

On a diesel typically the only part of the cylinder wall that is exposed when the fuel is injected will never have the rings touch it since the piston is at (or very close to) TDC when the main injection event occurs. If the piston were still traveling up there probably wouldn't be enough heat to light off the fuel.

On very high mileage engines I find there is at least as much if not more wear at the bottom of the cylinder where the most oil is present as there is at the top of the cylinder. If the top of the bore was being lubed more by the fuel than the oil, bore wear close to the deck should be considerably more than anywhere else in the cylinder. Although I find in many cases the ovaling of the cylinder is more of a problem than cylinder taper.

Also, the fuel is swirling as it enters the cylinder, especially on a diesel engine. On a gas engine since the combustion chamber is typically in the heads there is a relatively small amount of contact with the cylinder walls before the fuel is burnt. The same can be said of a diesel since the fuel is swirled into the piston top combustion chambers there is relatively little cylinder wall contact before the fuel is burnt.

Certainly there could be some benefit to running oil in your fuel, however in a diesel there are much better options. In a gas engine it is unnecessary. I don't think that there would be any measurable increase/decrease in engine life from using oil in gas from a wear standpoint. As I said above, using some type of a cleaning agent will certainly help.

 

[acewiza]

I think there is nore going on in the immediate vicinity of the combustion chamber, valve seats and last fraction of an inch in the cylinder top than you are letting on. I don't know exactly what it is, but I believe the real physics and chemistry of the combustion process in an engine could reveal why they seem to run better and last longer using things like MMO, Fuel power, etc. in the fuel.

 

[Cyprs]

thanks all, great posts coming here basspro.

I am going to keep reading posts in here and before I contribute in this discussion further I will bury myself in the large access to great information from doitmyself. After that I hope have something to contibute or ask further in here too.

No apology was necessary doitmyself, I did take it in good humor, I am not made of glass.

thanks for the links.

thanks all
Cyprs

 

[doitmyself]

Always remember to consider the source of your information.

The links I gave you are mostly ethanol industry related and will be somewhat self serving.

Your sources of information (Government employee, American tech., and coffee table chit-chat) are certainly questionable.

On the other hand, WreckerMan's obvious seat-of-the-pants, experience based opinion is priceless. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I look forward to YOUR conclusions, cyprs. Until then, drink Vernors (a Michigan ginger ale) and forget your Canada Dry stuff.

 

[1040 WreckerMan]

acewiza, I'm not trying to deceive you, I'm letting on to what I've found to be the case in my research, training and experience. What I described above is what I have observed by building many gas and diesel engines of many sizes. It is also taken from the countless classes I've attended and continual reading of new literature that is sent to me from the industry. Sealed Power had a very good publication around 1995 or so that reiterated much of what I said above pertaining to gas engines and their cylinder rings and the cylinder walls.

I have yet to see proof that an engine has lasted longer on FP, MMO or any other GAS additive other than a lead substitute. I will agree that many engines run better with MMO, FP, etc. However, as I stated above that is due to the solvency of the additive and it's tendency to solubilize (mostly) carbon deposits in the fuel system and somewhat on the piston crowns and valve faces. An engine that has deposits on the ring lands and thus stuck rings, as far as I have seen, may be saved by an oil additive but the fuel additive does nothing for them. If the fuel was in contact with the cylinder walls and piston long enough for any fuel additive to make a difference it would free the stuck rings as well as an oil additive.

I had two 2.3L Rangers at work that were very high mileage with extended oil drains with dino oil. They both failed not only the compression test but the leak-down test as well. After seeing what the top of the head looked like after the valve cover was pulled on the two engines I thought they would be good test mules. I ran a plethora of fuel additives and oil additives. None of the fuel additives made any measurable difference. Each fuel additive was run for one OCI and then the vehicles were evaluated again. I then tried several different solvent oil flushes, which did make some difference, although not enough to save the engines and I just yarded them out and went through them. If you are interested I can write up what we did, but I'm not going to right now, it would be a very long read.

The top end "lube" as far as modern gas engines go is as much of a myth as the Pennzoil sludge problems and the 3,000 mile OCI. A diesel engine needs lube in the fuel, but not for ring or valve lubrication.

I just finished a week long class at Cummins that dealt for several days just on lubrication and fuel lubricity was brought up as well. The engineers giving that class did not seem to think the fuel was affecting ring/cylinder/valve wear due to lubricty values.

I most certainly could be wrong, however all the training I've been to along with what I have seen in the field makes me believe I am for the most part accurate. I'm certainly no chemist either. What I stated above is what I have seen at the fleet level and at home with the various vintages (currently still running one A and one B model 4 cyl Ford engine as the oldest still in service at home) engines. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as the saying goes.

 

[Cyprs]

yeah doitmyself, just started on this and see the bias already. E-10 raves on how all auto manufactures endorses their ethanol with full blessing, Nissan listed as one. My 2005 Nissan Manual more tolerates reluctantly than endorses, hard starting, stalling and fuel system damage possible with ethanol, its like use ethanol within 10% blend cautiously, not endorsing in my interpretation.

my early reading so far on leaded and unleaded gas additives reflects what wreckerman says. Lead left a lead oxide that cushioned the valve seats, unleaded had added replacement additives for lead. E-10 claims they have natural and renewable additives to replace lead for older vehicles.

I have more reading, about 6 pdf files, but so far I see ethanol more like using a fuel system cleaner. Ethanol will loosen deposites created by previous non ethanol unleaded gas in both new and old engines, these deposites will go to filters, filters should be changed once ethanol cleaning is done and then continued use of ethanol will keep the system clean is the claim made.

Lower MPG in ethanol as Wreckerman states is a big issue to me at cost of gas today.

In layman's terms guys, what would cause a Nissan engine to stall or have hard hot starting with ethanol as warned in my manual?

Maybe "Dry" beer?

thanks,
Cyprs

 

[1040 WreckerMan]

Stalling could be the result of a clogged fuel filter or an ignition related problem due to the "poor" quality fuel. Hot start could be due to vapor lock. Ethanol vaporizes at a lower temperature than gas so it vapor locks the system easier than regular gas. Many gas powered vehicles are coming with return line coolers to reduce the temperature of the fuel returning to the fuel tank, this would greatly reduce the chance for vapor lock. If you Nissan doesn't have a cooler you could retrofit one fairly easily if space allows. Also, I don't think you will see any problems running the typical 10% blend other than reduced economy.

 

[doitmyself]

It would be interesting to have someone from Brazil chime in to tell us how their ethanol program is affecting car engine longevity.

So far, most of the literature seems to favor Wreckerman's ideas. Interesting debate.

 

[Cyprs]

thanks for all the help wreckerman, and thanks again for links doitmyself, busy and that is why I am late with the thankyou and haven't had much
time to read too many more ethanol pdfs, hope to later.

Based on the informative info here, I now only see two stroke added to gas as possible benefit to lubricating the fuel pump and I am guilty of running my gas tank low on occassion which is hard on the pump.

Fortunatly up here in Western Canada to my knowledge only Mowhawk and Husky gas stations add ethanol, (someone please correct me if I am wrong, if any other gas companies are putting ethanol in their gas I would like to know)

I think I will stay with filling stations I know or firmly believe that dont use ethanol blended
until time tested verdicts come out on others' vehicles, I dont want to risk my new X-trail now on unproven products nor do I want lost fuel economy at $4.50 Can gallon.

thanks again,
Cyprs

 

[DieselPower]

If your looking for a additive with good lubricity adding properties check out Texas Refinery Corp.'s DZL-LENE XL/10 or their DZL-PEP product line. All their fuel additives are registered with the EPA per 40 CFR 79.23 Reg. #0285-0009 and complies with federal low sulfur content requirements for use in diesel motor vehicles and non-road engines. The DZL-PEP has a greater treat ratio which ranges from 1:1,000 to 1:3,000 depending on your needs.

 

[Cyprs]

Thanks DieselPower, will check it out, available in

?
Cyprs