Diesel/gas fuel additive.

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Well. That was a constructive response - NOT. The fellow asks a legitimate question hoping for some direction by more learned people. Instead he gets this garbage... Very nice.

Anyway, previous idiot notwithstanding, I find that I have been seeing a smoother idle (if that is any indicator) on my CRD with the use of small amounts of Lucas UCL. I have found no difference with high sulfur diesel, low sulfur diesel or ULSD when UCL has been added. My two respectful cents' worth...

John.
 
In my 92 Dodge Cummins diesel I add 1/400 two stroke oil to my diesel fuel for winter when needed the most, it runs so good I do it year round. 1/400 ratio is about 250 mil to 100 litres diesel or 8 ounzes to 25 imperial gallons, or 30 American gallons, international conversions are bit complicated huh. I recently started to use a product called Howes Meaner Cleaner too for cleaning purpose.

Been using the two stroke in my diesel for two years now, improves mileage, lubricates the pump and run smooth/quiet.

Our gas up here in Canada is dry, I often wander about mixing the same proportion 1/400 to 1/600 two stroke to my gas tank in my Nissan X-trail with a QR25DE. In my old 1980 Datsun I used to put left over two stoke mixed gas into it all the time, never hurt it, ran great. Lot more to risk on a new warranteed Nissan now though.

Good question basspro, I wanted to ask the same question too.

Cyprs
 
I have been useing Stanadyne PF formula and primrose 405-409 in my 2004 cummins diesel since new with no issues.coobie
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Excuse my ignorance about diesel (and other things).

The fuel supplier at my work place held a meeting to tell us that they would be changing the additive package(they use Primrose)of their fuel to take care of the issues of ULSD. Our supplier, accompanied with a Primrose rep., said additional additives were unnecessary.

Won't all fuel suppliers be doing this?
 
"The fuel supplier at my work place held a meeting to tell us that they would be changing the additive package(they use Primrose)of their fuel to take care of the issues of ULSD."
This supplier and this add pakg may very well be ok. However most jobbers will only be adding a lubricity package and many of the bulk suppliers may not add anything other than what comes out of the refinery. There is also going to problems with pour points mixes and other variables yet known.
 
I think you were asking if 2 stroke oil would work in Gasoline? Right?

If so, I would think a small amount of 2 stroke oil would work in gasoline for your car engine for your stated purposes.....like 200 to 1.

Don't know about the Cat question of pluging...
 
I had read on the diesel fuel additive question,what additive to use with reduced sulfer fed. requirements. Master ACid said he was going to use twc3 2 cycle oil. I have always wondered if that would make a good additive for gasoline engines. There is at least one syn.twc3 2 cycle oil, smokeless. At a very low ratio I would think that it would proivde a quality upper end lubricant and a fuel pump lubricant. What does anyone else think? How would it affect the catalytic converter etc. Again at a much lower ratio than one would run on a 2 cycle engine.
 
At the end of the month I dump my unused premix into my Ranger. I've been doing that for 5 years with no trouble. I'm not sure I would want to use a higher concentration. I run 50:1 and usually end up with about 1.5-2.25 gallons of premix in a 19-gallon tank.
 
If the cat plugs, "repair" it so that never happens again.
I use off road Lead sub. It smells just like 2 stroke oil, I only use up to 2oz to 10gal.
 
i would have marginal questions about the 2 stroke oil pulluting the cat on a gas engine, on the other hand modern 2 stroke oil burns so rediculously clean i dont know if it would cause any damage.

as far as using 2 stroke oil in a diesel, my thoughts are "what can it hurt?". ive seen people run USED vegestable oil, USED motor oil (im guilty of trying this) and USED atf in diesel engines. ive also seen people cut the diesel with keroscene, gasoline, white gas etc.
certainly a new bottle of clean burning tcw3 cant do any more harm than the other junk some people put into the engines.
 
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It is this behavior that disrupts the learning process from infants to seniors.

In learning processes the same question maybe on 75% of peoples minds but the question doesn't get asked due to possible feedback . People die daily on jobsites/workplaces etc. because they couldn't muster the guts to ask a commonly feared " stupid question".

Reg#43897, I also wanted to comment on the negative post in my first post, you handled it concisely, with class and without disrupting the flow of responses. I didn't want to impede basspro's responses and I hope I dont do it now..

I was off this forum for 6 months, I was going to ask basspro's exact question, still like to hear responses to his question.

A customer recently asked a U.S. tech line considering upper end damage to a gas engine, the U.S. tech told him our gas up here in Canada is too dry, he suggested a quart of oil in a full gas tank from time to time, it worked.

Gas is lean/dry these days, considering the excessive price we pay for gas, we should not find ourselves having to reinforce with off the shelf lubes to get more life out of our high cost vehicles.

If gas companies wont help us out then forums like this help us to help ourselves.

Cyprs

[ September 09, 2006, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Bio-T ]
 
The only advantage of 2-cycle oil in fuel is that it is the least harmful home-brew. At least it is designed to be burned in a combustion chamber, and ATF, another popular home-brew ingredient isn't.

You are always best to use a real lubricity additive if you feel you need one. Buy a multipurpose fuel additive and use that.

What in the world is meant by "lean" or "dry" gas? Has anybody had damage done to an engine by gasoline that lacks lubricity? There are no very close clearance parts in a gasoline system like there are in a diesel fuel system. In any case, if you feel the need, add a real lubricity agent, not oil that gets very, very diluted. Also, oil in gasoline lowers the octane. You'll find your engine running with the spark retarded automatically to control ping.


Ken
 
Gas was once leaded, unleaded gas caused a lot of havoc back in early eighties. Special lead replacement additives were marketed to save valve damage etc due to unleaded gas. Many people just used motor oil in the gas instead.

Today I talked to this Government employee I mentioned earlier in my post, he told me the American Tech suggested auto tranny fluid, not motor oil as I stand corrected. This was for lubricating upper end of engines and fuel pumps using Canadian "dry" gas.

The American Tech clearly called the Canadian gas "dry" and that auto tranny fluid in the gas would stop the upper engine/pump problems, it did. He said American gas did not cause these problems.

One theory kicked around with some discussions with friends today is Ethanol, oxygenates that are used up here in Canada. Some I talked to say this may be the problem "Dry" gas. Some say ethanol is or will be mandatory in our gas in Canada, 10 or 15% mandatory content.

Anyway, I am going to run 1/400 two stroke oil in my X-Trail QR25DE for a starting point. Gas is not what it used to be in the late 1970s when I got 54 mpCanadiangallon in my 77 Datsun F-10, what threat to the enviroment was that gas and low tech engine design with a 1400 cc engine and single barrel carb. A KIA Rio 5 with todays gas and high tech at 1/3 the size of my 77 F10 can barely muster 48 mpg, gas has to have lost something over the years IMO, I am not alone on that one either, right or wrong, that is my belief anyway.

Cyprs
 
Did some digging in my Canadian Nissan manual:

"Take care not to spill gasoline during refueling. Gasoline containing oxygenates (ethanol) can cause paint damage"

Nissan wants no more than 10% ethanol content in gas and will still eat paint? ( ethanol at 10% works like solvent) may possibly be the "dry" problem?

My manual also states to be careful with ethanol, if it causes any hot starting problems or stalling to stop using it. They also warn against using any solvent like fuel injection cleaners. If my hunch is right, ethanol is like a solvent, solvent is dry
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so, does using a lubricant help in damage control in our gas meaning the U.S. tech was right? I am deducting here, just theory.

Cyprs
 
Cyprs,

before you have any credibility here, you have to come clean, my friend. Everyone knows (even here in the "states") that Canada Dry refers to a ginger ale, not gasoline! Come on, get with the program!

I suppose you don't believe that hockey is a religion either.
 
I also find Canada Dry too "dry", needs whiskey to lubricate me.
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I have always thought gas had to have some lubricant qualities because special lubricant additives (lead replacements) were sold to save 60's/70's engines' top ends when gas went unleaded. I was then told to use lead replacement additives or valves would burn out due to lack of lubrication. So I reasoned that gas must have had some lubricant qualities, I reasoned or hoped they replaced lead with safe enviromental alternatives at the refinery, this is what I base my credibility on and that may not be credible, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong and will admit it.

Sitting at coffee table in general conversation I learn that some people are having trouble with fuel pumps and upper parts of engines. They imform me a tech told them to use auto tranny fluid in gas and it solved the problems. The term "dry" gas is used.

Then I read my manual in gasolene section last night in further research and it states that ethanol can possibly cause stalling hot or hard starting or engine damage and it will eat the paint off my car if spilled at he pump, only 10% content will eat the paint off my car?
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I reason ethanol must be like solvent, most people will relate solvent as dry. My manual states ethanol can be blended in our gas without our knowledge, others tell me 10-15% ethanol blends may become Government legislation.

I ask if my theory has credibility, I dont claim credibility. Is ethanol causing engine/pump problems? My manual clearly states that fuel injection cleaners may contain solvents, solvents will do damage, Ethanol eats cured paint at 10% blend with gas.

Would something like auto tranny fluid, two stroke oil etc be benificial to protect engine/ pumps considering what may or maynot be in todays gasolene?

respectfully I will bravely risk this "stupid question" which refers to my earlier post in this topic on "use your friken brain"

or walk away from the keyboard on this.

Cyprs
 
Looks like some editing has been going on in the background here... I think that I wil leave well enough alone.

John.
 
Cyprs,

here is a link to a somewhat dated paper on gasoline lubricity - check the pdf near the bottom:

http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_4.html

here is another link to fuel lubricity research (sorry, it's long):

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewContentItem.do?contentType=Article&contentId=874544


and finally, this link offers an e-mail address to answer those "auto technician generated ethanol myths":

http://www.e10unleaded.com/contact.htm

With todays computerized fuel systems that "read" and adjust the combustion process, I would be leary of using a home brew.

Good luck and, after reading your difficulty in getting decent replies, I apologize for my wise crack too (yesterday was a loooong day and I needed some entertainment).
 
Lead was not a top end "lubricant" nor was it's environmentally safer replacement as such, it acted more like SCA's in diesel coolant. The lead (and now the "green" additives) coated the exposed surfaces of the valves when burned. This coating was beaten off the surface as the valves opened and closed instead of the valve and valve seat material being impacted.

When an engine that was meant to be run on leaded gas is run on unleaded gas that protective barrier on the valves and seats is not present. The closing valves come into direct contact with the unhardened valve seat material and a bit of seat material is transfered to the valves and is lost the next time the valve cycles. This leads to valve seat recession into the head or in the best case just uneven seat facing which causes poor sealing. "Burned" out valves are a result of exhaust gases that are excessively hot which weakens the valve itself. Portions of the vales can actually break off and cause a dead miss on that cylinder.

Gasoline engines need very little lubrication from the gas. Really the only thing lubed by the gas is the pump and with modern electric pumps that is really not much of a concern. I've found that heat is more of a problem for the fuel pump than lubricity. The in-tank pumps are cooled by immersion in the tank. People who consistently run the tank to near empty put many hours of time on the fuel pump when it is partially/fully above the fuel line in the tank. Eventually the (usually) composite components distort and stop pumping fuel.

Ethanol has some major disadvantages, imo. In older vehicles ethanol has a tendency to rapidly decay fuel system seals due to an incompatibility with materials used in these fuel systems. Ethanol is less resistant to ignition so it has a tendency to cause pre-detonation. Modern fuel systems can correct for this, usually by retarding the ignition timing which reduces power output. The heat value with ethanol is lower than gas which means it takes more volume of ethanol to produce the same power output as gas which results in lower MPG. Ethanol has some advantages for emissions purposes and to reduce petroleum dependence.

That is one reason I like biodiesel so much. It is the best alternative fuel that has been developed so far. It doesn't significantly reduced power output (I lost about 12 HP on the dyno at full load) and has better emissions overall than petro diesel. It is actually safer than petro diesel and has incredibly high lubricity values compared to petro diesel.

Ok, I'm almost done (takes one foot off soapbox).

I haven't ever run a lubricity additive in gas engines. I have run a lead additive, or sourced tetra-ethyl lead for use in older engines, however I've replaced all of the unhardened valve seats so I'm just running regular unleaded. The only additives I see any reason to put in gas is something to clean valve and piston deposits. With modern engines with very closely monitored fuel systems engine deposits such as carboned valves take quite a while to occur, so I don't use cleaner adds very often either.

If you wanted to run a 2 stroke oil in a small quantity I would say that is fine, although it's not doing much, if anything, to increase the longevity of a gas engine. If you are running ethanol blended gas there isn't much to do other than switch types if possible. Ok, I'm really done now, no really I am.
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