Diagnostic scanners.

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Originally Posted by RayCJ

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread but... Instead of scanners, is software for a laptop/notebook available instead? I've seen many wi-fi ODB readers that work with IOS and Android. Someone out there must have taken the next step and integrated full functionality into a PC software package.

Ray


Yes, this has been around way before Wifi and Bluetooth connected systems for iOS and Android. They seemed to have dropped off in popularity because users prefer the smaller footprint of a smartphone, or the purpose built scanners. The original GM dealer systems back in the late 90's were just ruggedized PC's with the OBD2 to (whatever) interface, with a lot of local logic and ability to store and forward data back to GM. Once you have the OBD2 to PC interface, and some API on your computer, then you could use literally any computer system to create your compute / presentation layer. A lot of these gadgets are cheap industrial controllers where the SDK (software development kit) runs on Linux, Mac or PC. I have not done this sort of work for a long time, but Java based systems running Vxworks used to be popular.



I checked out several software based packages yesterday and as you mention, they're out there but not as popular as the purpose-built, embedded devices. Cost of base software seemed reasonable though and if I upgrade my Foxwell NT301, I go with PC-based software next time. I see that ODBII looks like an interface spec for the COM port extending upward a little to reserve register IDs for common engine controls. After that, the software turns into the typical rats nest trying to keep-up with with proprietary register codes etc.

So, just curious... does each car manufacturer have their preferred diagnostic device and software? It would be really nice if one could obtain the "software module" from the manufacturer for a given line or model of vehicle. I have little to no faith in what people now call "Apps". Side note: In the old days, code was written, compiled, debugged/tested then released. Now, code doesn't need to be compiled and it seems most folks did-away with the debugging/testing part.

 

[shibby6600]

Originally Posted by RayCJ
I checked out several software based packages yesterday and as you mention, they're out there but not as popular as the purpose-built, embedded devices. Cost of base software seemed reasonable though and if I upgrade my Foxwell NT301, I go with PC-based software next time. I see that ODBII looks like an interface spec for the COM port extending upward a little to reserve register IDs for common engine controls. After that, the software turns into the typical rats nest trying to keep-up with with proprietary register codes etc.

So, just curious... does each car manufacturer have their preferred diagnostic device and software? It would be really nice if one could obtain the "software module" from the manufacturer for a given line or model of vehicle. I have little to no faith in what people now call "Apps". Side note: In the old days, code was written, compiled, debugged/tested then released. Now, code doesn't need to be compiled and it seems most folks did-away with the debugging/testing part.



OBD2 is not an interface spec to COM or serial. It is a spec determining the pin out and physical, electrical, and supported features of the vehicle for the purpose of diagnostics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics All vehicles after 2008 in the US have to support CAN, but they can also implement others.

Each manufacturer must implement a standard set of PIDs, which ever are applicable to the vehicle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs This means a lot of vehicles will have ones in common like coolant temperature, or MAF rate. Then there are manufacturer specific PIDs you would need to pay the manufacturer to get, or reverse engineer the meaning of each one. These ones are typically more complex, difficult to understand, and get working if you have not paid for them.

There are manufacturer specific scanners, such as a Tech2 for GM, that contains all of the manufacturer specific PIDs and can correctly communicate with any GM vehicle using their modules. These scanners are typically thousands or at least hundreds used.

I share the sentiment about bad apps that are on the market, but code certainly still needs to be compiled (for the most part save for scripting languages like Python, and for Android apps this is true which are written in Java), and testing is still a must. The problem of testing comes from not having enough data or access to the testing resources. I have built my own app for doing scanning, both a PC and Android version, and there are a number of people that have reported things as not working, and the best I can do is take a stab in the dark because I need to physically have their vehicle to test on to know why it doesn't work. Remote debugging and sending logs back to me only gets so far, I need to be able to poke and probe the software to see how it reacts, and that just can't happen in all cases. I hope this sheds some light on why some apps appear bad, not all of us developers are morons, I swear

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by shibby6600
Originally Posted by RayCJ
I checked out several software based packages yesterday and as you mention, they're out there but not as popular as the purpose-built, embedded devices. Cost of base software seemed reasonable though and if I upgrade my Foxwell NT301, I go with PC-based software next time. I see that ODBII looks like an interface spec for the COM port extending upward a little to reserve register IDs for common engine controls. After that, the software turns into the typical rats nest trying to keep-up with with proprietary register codes etc.

So, just curious... does each car manufacturer have their preferred diagnostic device and software? It would be really nice if one could obtain the "software module" from the manufacturer for a given line or model of vehicle. I have little to no faith in what people now call "Apps". Side note: In the old days, code was written, compiled, debugged/tested then released. Now, code doesn't need to be compiled and it seems most folks did-away with the debugging/testing part.



OBD2 is not an interface spec to COM or serial. It is a spec determining the pin out and physical, electrical, and supported features of the vehicle for the purpose of diagnostics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics All vehicles after 2008 in the US have to support CAN, but they can also implement others.

Each manufacturer must implement a standard set of PIDs, which ever are applicable to the vehicle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs This means a lot of vehicles will have ones in common like coolant temperature, or MAF rate. Then there are manufacturer specific PIDs you would need to pay the manufacturer to get, or reverse engineer the meaning of each one. These ones are typically more complex, difficult to understand, and get working if you have not paid for them.

There are manufacturer specific scanners, such as a Tech2 for GM, that contains all of the manufacturer specific PIDs and can correctly communicate with any GM vehicle using their modules. These scanners are typically thousands or at least hundreds used.

I share the sentiment about bad apps that are on the market, but code certainly still needs to be compiled (for the most part save for scripting languages like Python, and for Android apps this is true which are written in Java), and testing is still a must. The problem of testing comes from not having enough data or access to the testing resources. I have built my own app for doing scanning, both a PC and Android version, and there are a number of people that have reported things as not working, and the best I can do is take a stab in the dark because I need to physically have their vehicle to test on to know why it doesn't work. Remote debugging and sending logs back to me only gets so far, I need to be able to poke and probe the software to see how it reacts, and that just can't happen in all cases. I hope this sheds some light on why some apps appear bad, not all of us developers are morons, I swear

Thanks for the Wiki link. Based on numeric ordering, it helped me surmise a few of the code mnemonics shown on my Foxwell NT301. It just shows terse abbreviations for the PID... Vannah, I'd like to buy another vowel.

I completely understand (and sympathize with) the difficulties of developing good software. Somewhere in the early 90's my thesis was on the topic of real-time software reliability. This was back in the day when fierce arguments erupted over polled vs interrupt driven systems. Anyhow, I've always worked in extreme high reliability systems -many of them life critical -and when I use any commercial product; especially what people now call "Apps", I just snicker. Yes, some are better than others and the difference is not likely due to a Agile/Scrum/Time-boxed/Rapid/Extreme/Lean/FeatureDriven methodology but rather, a single developer on the team that actually knows what the heck is going on -and actually tests the edge cases.

But anyhow... I'm still in the market for an OBD solution and the deeper I dig, the options seem less reassuring. Some of the big companies have 10, 20, 30... different models. Uhhhh, can you say "out of control product line"? I'm trying to dig-up more info about PC based systems but, most of the online reviews are completely phoney.

 

[The Critic]

OP, which make/model do you plan to use the scanner with?

Originally Posted by atikovi
New ones are cordless. One part goes in the OBD2 socket and the tablet connects by Bluetooth so you can carry it to the engine or back to the trunk.

Such as their Maxisys line? I have owned a 906TS and an Elite, no issues with both.

 

[tiger862]

Look at OEM line

 

[clinebarger]

A cheap Chinese Tech 2 for the Chevies & Forscan for the Mustang.

Or even a cheap Snap-on MT2500 for the Chevies.......The Cam/Crank Offset is very easy to find in the troubleshooter under P1345 Code Tips. I recommend a 1999 Domestic combination Primary cartridge along with a 1999 Domestic Fast Track Troubleshooter cartridge.
You will need the OBD 2 cable & a K-9 personality key.

Yes....The MT2500 is ancient, But is the most powerful scan tool outside a Tech 2 for a CSPI GM engines as it gives ALL the manufacturer specific data PID's.
Using the older cartridges allows the data processing/sampling rate to be AS fast.....Actually faster than any other Non-OE scan tool I've used on these particular engines.

Snap-on's software became BLOATED with the later MT versions (2003-2007) & continues with their newest scan tools, The Tech 2 was also affected by software bloat in it's later updated versions 2007-2013.

With the Snap-on tools.....You can make a custom data list that increases the data processing/sampling rate, Doesn't work so much on the Tech 2.


This is kind of an extension to what shibby6600 posted, And if anyone on this board has more experience with GM CSPI engines than I do.....We can swap War Stories sometime

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by RayCJ
So, just curious... does each car manufacturer have their preferred diagnostic device and software? It would be really nice if one could obtain the "software module" from the manufacturer for a given line or model of vehicle. I have little to no faith in what people now call "Apps". Side note: In the old days, code was written, compiled, debugged/tested then released. Now, code doesn't need to be compiled and it seems most folks did-away with the debugging/testing part.


It's what separates the manufactures from others. Mercedes uses their own system, Xentry/Star diagnostic. There are various companies that make knock off systems that you can buy. I've heard that the real system the shops buy are in the 25k range but not really sure. The knock off systems are in the $500-$1000 range. As it's meant for a shop, there's not much info on how to use them. Having the real tools the shop uses gives you access to certain things that you can't do with a basic scanner, even ones that may allow you to bleed ABS won't have all the other functions. One thing people like to do is lower the car, with the manufacturer's system, you can set the ride height in the system if you have an airmatic system. You can also code certain items as not present to get around certain problems. And of course certain new components need to be coded to the car and either you go to the dealer to do it or use one of the knock off systems to code it to your car. A basic scanner is good enough for me for now, I just want to fix the car, not do mods to it.

 

[Tundragod]

I need a scanner/programmer that cost less than $500. I like this one Autel MaxiCOM MK908P but it is >$2500. I watched a guy using the MK908P to program Honda key fobs but I can't find any other scanner that can do that. Appreciate any input.

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted by The Critic
OP, which make/model do you plan to use the scanner with?

Originally Posted by atikovi
New ones are cordless. One part goes in the OBD2 socket and the tablet connects by Bluetooth so you can carry it to the engine or back to the trunk.

Such as their Maxisys line? I have owned a 906TS and an Elite, no issues with both.

I plan on using it on both of my 98 chevy trucks, my 14 Mustang, my fiancee's 05 Mustang and her 17 F150. I will also use it on her and my family members which own various GM and Ford products from about 05 to 2017 which include two Ford Superduty trucks with the 6.0 diesel and one Superduty with the 6.7L diesel.

 

[wtd]

I also want to say thanks to everyone for the suggestions and input.

I also wanted to add that I had called Innova to ask about their Pro line tool #5160 which is their top of the line diagnostic scanner and the guy I talked to said it can't give me the cam retard reading for my 98 chevy trucks so of coarse it's not going to work for me.

I like the Autel scanners but they have so many versions that it's kind of confusing trying to decide what would be good to get and will work for what I want.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by wtd
Originally Posted by The Critic
OP, which make/model do you plan to use the scanner with?

Originally Posted by atikovi
New ones are cordless. One part goes in the OBD2 socket and the tablet connects by Bluetooth so you can carry it to the engine or back to the trunk.

Such as their Maxisys line? I have owned a 906TS and an Elite, no issues with both.

I plan on using it on both of my 98 chevy trucks, my 14 Mustang, my fiancee's 05 Mustang and her 17 F150. I will also use it on her and my family members which own various GM and Ford products from about 05 to 2017 which include two Ford Superduty trucks with the 6.0 diesel and one Superduty with the 6.7L diesel.


For Fords, the best software out there is probably Forscan and it's free. Just need a reader to go with it. As for the Autel, you can compare them all, but the diaglink seems like it will read all the systems.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by wtd
I also want to say thanks to everyone for the suggestions and input.

I also wanted to add that I had called Innova to ask about their Pro line tool #5160 which is their top of the line diagnostic scanner and the guy I talked to said it can't give me the cam retard reading for my 98 chevy trucks so of coarse it's not going to work for me.

I like the Autel scanners but they have so many versions that it's kind of confusing trying to decide what would be good to get and will work for what I want.



The problem is Cam/Crank Offset is not a generic OBD-2 PID, It's a Manufacturer Specific PID. Not saying that a generic scan tool won't have it, But it's not something relevant enough for them to specifically include.

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by wtd
I also want to say thanks to everyone for the suggestions and input.

I also wanted to add that I had called Innova to ask about their Pro line tool #5160 which is their top of the line diagnostic scanner and the guy I talked to said it can't give me the cam retard reading for my 98 chevy trucks so of coarse it's not going to work for me.

I like the Autel scanners but they have so many versions that it's kind of confusing trying to decide what would be good to get and will work for what I want.



The problem is Cam/Crank Offset is not a generic OBD-2 PID, It's a Manufacturer Specific PID. Not saying that a generic scan tool won't have it, But it's not something relevant enough for them to specifically include.

I guess I've been spoiled by my AutoXray 6000 scanner that does give that information and a lot more. It also gives transmission oil temps which most of the others that I've used don't. I guess I will just have to hope that it doesn't crap out on me any time soon.

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wtd
Originally Posted by The Critic
OP, which make/model do you plan to use the scanner with?

Originally Posted by atikovi
New ones are cordless. One part goes in the OBD2 socket and the tablet connects by Bluetooth so you can carry it to the engine or back to the trunk.

Such as their Maxisys line? I have owned a 906TS and an Elite, no issues with both.

I plan on using it on both of my 98 chevy trucks, my 14 Mustang, my fiancee's 05 Mustang and her 17 F150. I will also use it on her and my family members which own various GM and Ford products from about 05 to 2017 which include two Ford Superduty trucks with the 6.0 diesel and one Superduty with the 6.7L diesel.


For Fords, the best software out there is probably Forscan and it's free. Just need a reader to go with it. As for the Autel, you can compare them all, but the diaglink seems like it will read all the systems.

I will check out Forscan. As far as my trucks go, I will have to find a scanner that can read manufacturer specific PID's.

 

[ajchien]

I recently upgraded to the launch diagun x431.

Cost is about $640.

Lots of features including quite a few Bi-Directional control features.

It is minimally buggy, for some reason on my 03 crv, it will once in a while activate the srs light, although with no code. One quick clearing of the srs fixes it.

I'm also not looking forward to the $300 update fees after the first 2 years. But then, all the Bi-Directional scanner have update fees. Probably not a problem if you're a diy. Just pay the fee when you get a new car for the latest updates I figure.

Overall, I'm quite happy with it.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by ajchien
I recently upgraded to the launch diagun x431.

Cost is about $640.

Lots of features including quite a few Bi-Directional control features.

It is minimally buggy, for some reason on my 03 crv, it will once in a while activate the srs light, although with no code. One quick clearing of the srs fixes it.

I'm also not looking forward to the $300 update fees after the first 2 years. But then, all the Bi-Directional scanner have update fees. Probably not a problem if you're a diy. Just pay the fee when you get a new car for the latest updates I figure.

Overall, I'm quite happy with it.


I have an older Launch X431 EasyDiag. It was cheap when it first came out now it seems to have been replaced by the Launch iCarscan. Comes with software for 10 car lines but one of the things they count as a car line is the ability to do specific functions like bleed ABS or DPF regen. It's a tad under $300 now on Aliexpress. My subscription expired after a year so they didn't let me update to the latest version but it did let me update to one older version which was good enough for me as it was still a year or to newer since the last time I used it. Maybe they fixed that bug by now, haven't had to use it lately.