Dexos Gen 3 Question

Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
12
Hello. I wanted to get you guys opinion on something. Since Dexos Gen 3 is the standard now, before it actually came out and gen 2 was the standard, do most oils have to be reformulated or are most oils with their current formulation (pre gen 3) good enough that it meets Gen 3 specifications and they get to slap that license on it.

The reason I ask is, I was tinkering around on the boards and look at voas and manufacturer PDS’s and what I notice is before and after they are Gen 3 the sheets seem to stay the same on a few that I’ve looked at. If they were reformulated to meet Gen 3 specifications wouldn’t that also change some of the PDS info? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

For example I heavily use QSFS in my WRX and Chrysler 200, one uses 0W20 the other 5W20. Pre gen 3 the PDS’s are excatly the same. Other than now the bottles have the gen 3 logo on it and the PDS has the Gen 3 license on the sheet. Was the oil already so good that it met specs, and no reformulation was required? It’s not just QS, I’ve noticed this on other oils too like Pennzoil.

Thanks for your time, hopefully someone with a little more knowledge in this area can chime in.
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
8,735
Location
Atlanta,GA
Hello. I wanted to get you guys opinion on something. Since Dexos Gen 3 is the standard now, before it actually came out and gen 2 was the standard, do most oils have to be reformulated or are most oils with their current formulation (pre gen 3) good enough that it meets Gen 3 specifications and they get to slap that license on it.

The reason I ask is, I was tinkering around on the boards and look at voas and manufacturer PDS’s and what I notice is before and after they are Gen 3 the sheets seem to stay the same on a few that I’ve looked at. If they were reformulated to meet Gen 3 specifications wouldn’t that also change some of the PDS info? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

For example I heavily use QSFS in my WRX and Chrysler 200, one uses 0W20 the other 5W20. Pre gen 3 the PDS’s are excatly the same. Other than now the bottles have the gen 3 logo on it and the PDS has the Gen 3 license on the sheet. Was the oil already so good that it met specs, and no reformulation was required? It’s not just QS, I’ve noticed this on other oils too like Pennzoil.

Thanks for your time, hopefully someone with a little more knowledge in this area can chime in.
As I understand it the majority of the changes are found within the addpack which won't show up on a PDS. It's also plausible that the existing additive package required only minor or no changes at all. A PDS may reflect some minor changes in the physical attributes of the final product (Viscosity, HTHS, Pour point etc.) which can give you clues with regards to changes in the base formulation. The degree of changes in additive and base oil composition will in part depend upon the degree in which a standard was updated as well as the internal standards of the formulator. I would expect less of a change from an oil company which has substantially higher internal performance standards (ex Mobil 1).

VOA's will help to some degree but they do not capture everything.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 2, 2002
Messages
3,711
Location
Georgia/Retired
Naturally your question is going to relate to specific lubricant brands. Does a product need to be reformulated to meet a newer specific? Answered simply - it depends.

The newer standard isn't earth moving in any manner but it does set a slightly higher bar in an attempt to get a grip on the LSPI problem plaguing the industry.

Check out these two spiders from Lubrizol regarding GM's DEXOS 1 specs and see how the newer requirement was received:

Gen 3 relation.JPG
Spider.JPG
 

dalekinder

Thread starter
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
12
As I understand it the majority of the changes are found within the addpack which won't show up on a PDS. It's also plausible that the existing additive package required only minor or no changes at all. A PDS may reflect some minor changes in the physical attributes of the final product (Viscosity, HTHS, Pour point etc.) which can give you clues with regards to changes in the base formulation. The degree of changes in additive and base oil composition will in part depend upon the degree in which a standard was updated as well as the internal standards of the formulator. I would expect less of a change from an oil company which has substantially higher internal performance standards (ex Mobil 1).

VOA's will help to some degree but they do not capture everything.
Thank you for your time and replying. That makes sense. Ive spent countless hours on here. And most consumers just grab a bottle, change the oil or take it with them to an oil change and dont think twice about it. I however like to take care of my vehicles and like to learn more about what the oil is made of etc. Im not an engineer by any means and can do everything up to changing plugs, oil, air filter. But anything past that, my keys go to the mechanic or service dept at the dealer. My specialty is IT. :)
 

dalekinder

Thread starter
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
12
Naturally your question is going to relate to specific lubricant brands. Does a product need to be reformulated to meet a newer specific? Answered simply - it depends.

The newer standard isn't earth moving in any manner but it does set a slightly higher bar in an attempt to get a grip on the LSPI problem plaguing the industry.

Check out these two spiders from Lubrizol regarding GM's DEXOS 1 specs and see how the newer requirement was received:

View attachment 128295 View attachment 128296
This chart gives a-lot more info than the regular GM dexos one Ive read. The one in my picture that comes from GM makes it look like its a huge improvement for turbo chargers and fuel economy.
 

Attachments

  • adaptive_image_copy_copy.img.jpg
    adaptive_image_copy_copy.img.jpg
    83.9 KB · Views: 45
Joined
Aug 31, 2022
Messages
29
Location
Canada
Naturally your question is going to relate to specific lubricant brands. Does a product need to be reformulated to meet a newer specific? Answered simply - it depends.

The newer standard isn't earth moving in any manner but it does set a slightly higher bar in an attempt to get a grip on the LSPI problem plaguing the industry.

Check out these two spiders from Lubrizol regarding GM's DEXOS 1 specs and see how the newer requirement was received:

View attachment 128295 View attachment 128296
Here is another graph version of it
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
3,591
Location
GA.
So , it appears the new D1 / Gen 3 formulation has the following negative changes from the D1 / Gen 2 formulation : 1) Less Wear Protection than the previous D1 / Gen 2 formulation . 2) Less Sludge Control . While it may be minor in terms of reduction - I would not be running longer OCI's with the new D1 / Gen 3 oils (if you care about wear control and sludge control) .
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
8,735
Location
Atlanta,GA
So , it appears the new D1 / Gen 3 formulation has the following negative changes from the D1 / Gen 2 formulation : 1) Less Wear Protection than the previous D1 / Gen 2 formulation . 2) Less Sludge Control . While it may be minor in terms of reduction - I would not be running longer OCI's with the new D1 / Gen 3 oils (if you care about wear control and sludge control) .
<delete>
 
Top