Dex 3 or Dex 6...which is ok?

I am going to disagree with some of the recommendations above and I'll tell you why, in detail.

I am a big fan of DEX VI ... most of the time. But not in your application. I'll explain, to the best of my memory and ability to recall details.

Dex VI is a wonderful product enhancement "next step" past Dex III(h); it came along around 2006. DexVI has performance requirements which essentially necessitate the use of base stocks which would be grp III or greater, and the additive package is very robust. It's a great product, unless it's paired with older transmissions which have older seals and o-rings which are not up to the capability expectations for the new fluid. GM back-spec'd the Dex VI because they were not going to continue to license the Dex III. However, Allison did not agree, and created a "new" spec just so they could continue to have a separate fluid for the "old" seals. (What was known then as TES-389, essentially a traditional Dex III; versus their TES-295 which was a PAO based Dex III). Newer transmissions which don't have the seal compatibility issues can benefit greatly from the Dex VI, as it maintains its viscosity incredibly well (though it is lower; around 6.0 or so), and has a fantastic additive package.

Way back in the day, I did a lot of research because my (then) new 2006 Silv 3500 had the Dmax and 6-spd Allison (which was GM made in Baltimore). Whereas GM said it was proper to put Dex VI in the trans, Allison didn't agree and spec'd TES-389 or TES-295. GM owned Allison at the time, so there was some internal in-fighting over the topic. There are a few old-time members here who actually worked at GM and Allison; I was able to get the backstory from them. They greatly respected each other, but had differing opinions on the issue. The issue lies in the fact that when DEX VI was used in very high-heat conditions, the fluid would hold up fine, but if that application included old seals, there could be a breakdown of the seal materials. This was a VERY rare circumstance, as the very high heat took a long time to degrade the materials when combined with the additive package compounds. But, the condition does exist, regardless of how seldom the actual occurrences are. In "normal" use, it's unlikely that the heat would ever get high enough to cause a problem.

Since 2007, the seals in GM vehicles have been compatible with Dex VI. 2006 was a crossover year; some had upgraded seals and some didn't. Any vehicle older than 2006 won't have the updated seals. And as long as the fluid doesn't get really hot (above 300F IIRC), it "should" be OK for Dex VI. But that's not a risk worth taking IMO because there are plenty of alternatives which don't have this risk, no matter how remote it may be. So, with all that info, and knowing I was going to be towing an RV and had potential for high heat conditions, I decided to eschew the Dex VI and use a TES-295 type product. My truck didn't make the serial number cut-off, so it was susceptible, however remote that chance might be.


OP, if you want to service your 2002 truck, I would recommend a few choices:
- any well-known brand of lube that offers a "Dex/Merc", "D/M", "D3-M" or such fluid; plenty to choose from. These will be traditional grp II/II+ type fluids. The will start with vis around 7.3cSt or so, but fall off quickly. However, the vis drop doesn't seem to affect wear control; I've seen plenty of UOA to support this conclusion. - any quality brand which offers a synthetic version comparable to the old Dex/Merc applications. Again, there are plenty to choose from. Some will be group III, others PAO. Any will suffice and offer a longer service life due to the higher base stocks.

That's my input on the topic.
dnewton3

Your memory/recall with respect to the Allison Transmission used in the HD GM Pickups with the 6.6 Duramax (also 8100 Big Block Gasoline?) is great. Appreciate the details as I had many 2500HD and 3500 GM Pickups with the Duramax Allison combination (2001 through 2023) and recall the information as you do.

Thanks for a great post with the details to refresh my recall.
 
Dexron VI is my recommendation. I personally like Valvoline Dexron VI. fully GM licensed and can be had decently cheap if you shop around.
 
The Valvoline blue bottle Dex/Merc (non synthetic.) Someone above recommended Castrol Transmax High Mileage.
You will be fine using or mixing the blue bottle Valv dex/merc, Transmax, Maxlife, and/or Dex VI. This is not a loose sleep topic. Whatever is cheap and convenient. I happen to currently have bargain maxlife in my basement so that's what I'd grab.

Use a non synthetic (Valv dex/merc) that claims Dex III but does not claim Dex VI if the seal compatibility thing bothers you. It does not keep me up at night. I put Dex VI in my 2000 silverado 4l60 in 2014 and it was fine when I sold it nine years later.

IMO, it was overblown in the allison community. My 2006 Allison leaked until it was rebuilt in 2024. I found a performance rebuilder local to Baltimore that worked in that factory. He advised using Dex III and changing frequently under hard use rather than using fancier fluids and trying to benefit from longer intervals.
 
You will be fine using or mixing the blue bottle Valv dex/merc, Transmax, Maxlife, and/or Dex VI. This is not a loose sleep topic. Whatever is cheap and convenient. I happen to currently have bargain maxlife in my basement so that's what I'd grab.

Use a non synthetic (Valv dex/merc) that claims Dex III but does not claim Dex VI if the seal compatibility thing bothers you. It does not keep me up at night. I put Dex VI in my 2000 silverado 4l60 in 2014 and it was fine when I sold it nine years later.

IMO, it was overblown in the allison community. My 2006 Allison leaked until it was rebuilt in 2024. I found a performance rebuilder local to Baltimore that worked in that factory. He advised using Dex III and changing frequently under hard use rather than using fancier fluids and trying to benefit from longer intervals.
I agree with frequent changes/shorter intervals. Being a dealer mechanic, I get stuff cheap. Modern stuff to older stuff compatibility is what bothers me. No sleep lost, but I do enjoy knowing things! :D
 
I am going to disagree with some of the recommendations above and I'll tell you why, in detail.

I am a big fan of DEX VI ... most of the time. But not in your application. I'll explain, to the best of my memory and ability to recall details.

Dex VI is a wonderful product enhancement "next step" past Dex III(h); it came along around 2006. DexVI has performance requirements which essentially necessitate the use of base stocks which would be grp III or greater, and the additive package is very robust. It's a great product, unless it's paired with older transmissions which have older seals and o-rings which are not up to the capability expectations for the new fluid. GM back-spec'd the Dex VI because they were not going to continue to license the Dex III. However, Allison did not agree, and created a "new" spec just so they could continue to have a separate fluid for the "old" seals. (What was known then as TES-389, essentially a traditional Dex III; versus their TES-295 which was a PAO based Dex III). Newer transmissions which don't have the seal compatibility issues can benefit greatly from the Dex VI, as it maintains its viscosity incredibly well (though it is lower; around 6.0 or so), and has a fantastic additive package.

Way back in the day, I did a lot of research because my (then) new 2006 Silv 3500 had the Dmax and 6-spd Allison (which was GM made in Baltimore). Whereas GM said it was proper to put Dex VI in the trans, Allison didn't agree and spec'd TES-389 or TES-295. GM owned Allison at the time, so there was some internal in-fighting over the topic. There are a few old-time members here who actually worked at GM and Allison; I was able to get the backstory from them. They greatly respected each other, but had differing opinions on the issue. The issue lies in the fact that when DEX VI was used in very high-heat conditions, the fluid would hold up fine, but if that application included old seals, there could be a breakdown of the seal materials. This was a VERY rare circumstance, as the very high heat took a long time to degrade the materials when combined with the additive package compounds. But, the condition does exist, regardless of how seldom the actual occurrences are. In "normal" use, it's unlikely that the heat would ever get high enough to cause a problem.

Since 2007, the seals in GM vehicles have been compatible with Dex VI. 2006 was a crossover year; some had upgraded seals and some didn't. Any vehicle older than 2006 won't have the updated seals. And as long as the fluid doesn't get really hot (above 300F IIRC), it "should" be OK for Dex VI. But that's not a risk worth taking IMO because there are plenty of alternatives which don't have this risk, no matter how remote it may be. So, with all that info, and knowing I was going to be towing an RV and had potential for high heat conditions, I decided to eschew the Dex VI and use a TES-295 type product. My truck didn't make the serial number cut-off, so it was susceptible, however remote that chance might be.


OP, if you want to service your 2002 truck, I would recommend a few choices:
- any well-known brand of lube that offers a "Dex/Merc", "D/M", "D3-M" or such fluid; plenty to choose from. These will be traditional grp II/II+ type fluids. The will start with vis around 7.3cSt or so, but fall off quickly. However, the vis drop doesn't seem to affect wear control; I've seen plenty of UOA to support this conclusion. - any quality brand which offers a synthetic version comparable to the old Dex/Merc applications. Again, there are plenty to choose from. Some will be group III, others PAO. Any will suffice and offer a longer service life due to the higher base stocks.

That's my input on the topic.
Agreed on using the upgraded TES fluids in these if one wants to give them the best. The thing I like about the Castrol I linked is that It starts at 8.0 though it's a bit higher in vii compared to other dex 3 data sheets I've seen. But even with the higher vii I bet it still ends up with a higher viscosity then the once sheared dex 3 of before. And it's so cheap and readily available who's to fuss if it's sheared after 60k as I'm 52k on this Castrol fill and it's still shifting the same like in the first miles after the change which firmed it up a lot to where it's no longer groggy and noticeably slow to shift. I don't know figures but I trust the group 2 and vii of today is much better than the group 2 and vii of a few decades ago.
 
Hi. Don't run dex6 in a tranny that is older then 2005-6. It is not backward compatible. Due to the different seal materials. Can cause leaks. Good luck.
I have never heard this before. I have used Dexron-VI in my 1994 BMW, 1996 Accord, 1999 Sienna and in a 1996 Camry for someone else. It works fine. Where is the documentation that says this? Was it ever issued when the license was superseded?
 
Has anyone besides me used TES 295 fluids in 6L80E & 6L90Es?
TES 295 and when my last pail of it is gone, TES 668, will go into Allison 1000s behind 6.6 Duramax engines, power steering and transfer cases.

Now I can add posting on bitog to the four other things I did at work this week.
 
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I have never heard this before. I have used Dexron-VI in my 1994 BMW, 1996 Accord, 1999 Sienna and in a 1996 Camry for someone else. It works fine. Where is the documentation that says this? Was it ever issued when the license was superseded?
Oh, the old Tom Johnson threads on all the forums. Mr. Transynd. Viton seal compatibility. On the duramax forums he famously rubbed Mike L the wrong way. (Mike L had that issue with a few folks.) I hope Tom has been able to spend his retirement where he was appreciated.

https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/former-allison-fluids-engineer-here-to-help.420656/


https://www.jglubricantservices.com/about_us.html

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f126/former-allison-transmission-fluids-engineer-154798.html

The Allison 1000 family was originally designed in a time when Grp II ATF was normal. After the whole Dex VI thing, Allison realized there was a market for a 150,000 mile fluid, TES-668 for commercial vehicles where reduced downtime meant money. The increased cost makes sense there in a way the average PC-ATF shadetree diy user will never realize...but sometimes we want the best.

My worthless opinion is that even if the seals aren't compatible, the difference is minor and is irrelevant to the life/performance on 20 year old transmissions in crusty/rusty beaters. But on occasion someone has a 20 year old "they don't make them like that anymore" museum piece that runs on nostalgia and has never seen a trans rebuild...they want to sweat the details. To them I say, find a deal on reputable brand Dex III and exercise a responsible D&F interval based on use.
 
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The old Tom Johnson threads. Viton seal compatibility. Ultimately he and Mike L couldn't share the sandbox with differing opinions. Tom gave up and spent his retirement where he was appreciated. Mike rebuilt transmissions until he died.

https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/former-allison-fluids-engineer-here-to-help.420656/

The Allison 1000 family was originally designed in a time when Grp II ATF was normal. After the whole Dex VI thing, Allison realized there was a market for a 150,000 mile fluid, TES-668 for commercial vehicles where reduced downtime meant money. The increased cost makes sense there in a way the average PC-ATF shadetree diy user will never realize...but sometimes we want the best.

My worthless opinion is that even if the seals aren't compatible, the difference is minor and is irrelevant to the life/performance on 20 year old transmissions in crusty/rusty beaters. But on occasion someone has a 20 year old "they don't make them like that anymore" museum piece that runs on nostalgia and has never seen a trans rebuild...they want to sweat the details. To them I say, find a deal on reputable brand Dex III and exercise a responsible D&F interval based on use.
Except that there aren’t any Dexron-III licensed fluids, so who knows what base oils are being used. The guy you reference notes that Dexron-VI isn’t PAO, and improperly additized PAO is the issue. Group II and Group III bases are chemically the same. Viton compatibility must be the same for those.

Plus that was nearly 15 years ago now. I guess I’m not too worried, I don’t use Dexron-VI anymore due to the cost. I just use Maxlife in everything. And I certainly don’t go 150,000 miles between changes.
 
@Frontier4000
I've had many GM vehicles that originally were spec'd for Dex3 that I ran Dex6 in. No issues or leaks.

Currently I have a 2002 Corvette w/4L60e tranny, I run Amsoils version on Dex6 (Amsoil ATL). No leaks.

BUT, I had to change the output shaft seal due to leaking on the 1995 Allison B500 6 sp automatic tranny in my 1995 Prevost bus/MH. It started leaking 4.5 yrs and 18k miles after switching to an Allison approved TES295 synthetic atf. Allison is aware of the issue, so I installed the new seal that's compatible with TES295 synthetic atf. 7yrs and another 40k miles later = no leaks.

Anytime I have a atf question I call Tom Johnson at JG Lubricant Services. He's a retire GM/Allison fluids engineer that developed the TES295 spec.

https://allisontransmission.com/aftermarket-and-channel/parts-and-service/on-highway-fluids
 
I have never heard this before. I have used Dexron-VI in my 1994 BMW, 1996 Accord, 1999 Sienna and in a 1996 Camry for someone else. It works fine. Where is the documentation that says this? Was it ever issued when the license was superseded?

The info you asked about isn't as "clear cut" as some would like.
Allison has a very old document that says not to use Dex VI in 2006 and earlier; there is a S/N cutoff. I had access to that document back in the day; not sure where I've stored it now. But, GM never put out such a document; because they didn't agree with Allison's position. (And GM owned Allison at the time, so daddy GM gets to make the rules).


As I previously explained, the concern of compatibility of Dex VI with older seals is one that has multiple criteria:
- must be very high-heat application
- must be subjected to such conditions over long durations

Dex VI is going to work quite well even in older transmissions AS LONG AS they don't succumb to the aforementioned concerns.
This is why we see a wide array of anecdotal uses with no adverse effects. The trans application simply didn't get hot enough for long enough to cause a problem.
But the reality is that there IS, most certainly, a compatibility issue for some applications (long exposure to high heat).

Remember that Allison products tend towards the HD and commercial applications; higher heat loads with long saturation periods is not uncommon in their world. But your typical car or personal use SUV isn't likely to get into a condition that would warrant concern; hence Dex VI would probably be OK. It makes sense when you consider the specific viewpoints of each company. Allison had a good reason not to want Dex VI in older transmissions. GM didn't generally have those same heat/time concerns, so they said Dex VI is fine for use in older vehicles.


I recommend the OP use a Dex III based product for two reasons:
- I have zero idea of how hot he might get the trans fluid, and for how long
- there are PLENTY of products out there, that are NOT Dex VI, and would work well
So why risk the issue, no matter how remote the chance of experiencing the compatibility problem? 🤷‍♂️
If there were no good alternatives to Dex VI, then I'd say use the Dex VI. But there are plethora of good options, many of which won't break the bank.


********************
Edit: I found a conversation I participated in over at DP way back in the day; see this info:
https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/allison-1000-and-dexron-vi.323302/


Again, I personally spoke to the two engineers (one in Detroit for GM; the other in Indy for Allison) and fully understand the concerns and positions of each company viewpoint. As I said, both men knew each other and respected each other, but had different opinions on how to treat the subject. So I did my research and made up my own mind, and can anyone reading this thread.

Caveat Emptor.
 
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Has anyone besides me used TES 295 fluids in 6L80E & 6L90Es?
TES 295 and when my last pail of it is gone, TES 668, will go into Allison 1000s behind 6.6 Duramax engines, power steering and transfer cases.

Now I can add posting on bitog to the four other things I did at work this week.
I have a 6L80e w/199k miles in our 07 Yukon Denali. Under our owner ship the last 6+ yrs and 70k miles it has gotten a new torque converter, 2 filter/fluid changes, and a diet of nothing but AC Delco Dexron6 atf.

Here's a thread I did with 2 different lab results: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/dexron-vi-43k-miles-on-fluid-6l80e.354573/
 
Except that there aren’t any Dexron-III licensed fluids, so who knows what base oils are being used.
I don't disagree. It has been mentioned multiple times. As such, the customer that seeks Dex-III needs to find a brand they trust selling a Dex/Merc product that doesn't say full syn on the bottle and wing it. Shadetree BITOGers teend to be over-maintainers so a responsible interval going forward should not be a problem.
 
Dexron VI is backwards-compatible with Dexron III. In fact, GM doesn't even license the III anymore, only the VI. So yeah, Dex6 is good to use in that car :)

It won't slip due to mixing dex3 and dex6. It will slip due to being too low on fluid, overheating, or some other transmission problem :sneaky:

Yes, the drain plug is very helpful and makes changing the ATF MUCH easier :D
 
From Wikipedia

“DEXRON-VI is of a slightly lower viscosity when new compared to the prior DEXRON fluids (a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100 °C for DEXRON-VI and 7.5 cSt for DEXRON-III), but the allowed viscosity loss from shearing of the ATF during use is lower for DEXRON-VI, resulting in the same lowest allowed final viscosity for both DEXRON-III and DEXRON-VI (5.5 cSt) in test. In reality, most of the DEXRON-III fluids typically sheared to about 4.2 cSt in use. The lower, more stable viscosity improved pumping efficiency within the transmission and fluid stability over life. Since Dexron VI is not allowed to thin out (lower its viscosity) as much as Dexron III during use, it requires the use of higher-quality, more shear-stable (less prone to thinning while in use) formulations.”

Dexron III - I use Mobil 1 Black label, 112980
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants...s/our-products/products/mobil-1-synthetic-atf
Dexron VI - I use AC Delco 109243. Careful, some of the GM stuff is either semi synthetic or conventional…

That TES-295 stuff is just Dexron VI, with the viscosity of Dexron III.
Too expensive for me…
 
Hi. Don't run dex6 in a tranny that is older then 2005-6. It is not backward compatible. Due to the different seal materials. Can cause leaks. Good luck.
The Afton formulators of Dex VI took into account seal materials to make it backward compatible.

@Frontier4000 If you're shy of Dexron VI's slightly lower viscosity (which shouldn't make any difference) then @RDY4WAR comment, "Perhaps HPL "Blue" (Dex III) ATF would be the compromise. You get the better synthetic base oils with the Dex III add pack," would also be my pick.

We're not addressing Allison transmissions and their seal mistake, but an older GM transmission and most likely an XL60 variant.
 
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Morning BITOG's, my newest ride is a 2002 Chevy Blazer 4x4. It has 150k miles and runs pretty good. There's been a lot of maintenance done but no record of the trans fluid specifically. It doesn't look or smell burnt, but is discolored for sure and I'd like to change it. At work, the Service Information says factory fill is Dex 3. My trans guy suggested replacing the filter, adding a new pan with drain bolt, and topping off with Dex 6. Then do drain and fills (5 quarts for the deep pan) annually. Another guy said just hook our fluid exchange machine (NOT a flush machine....) to the cooler line and run 5 quarts of Dex 6 through without changing the filter. Finally, another friend said "Dex 3 only!" Who is correct? Or, what would you guys do? My initial thought was to follow the advice of my trans guy and replace the filter, pan, and top off with the Dex 6. This truck is my daily driver, and will eventually tow a 2000 pound capable trailer this summer with our 4 wheeler on it. I know Dex 6 is a better fluid, but I'm not sure what mixing will do. I don't want the trans to start slipping or failing due to the different fluids, or the shift characteristics to change. Thanks in advance!
Any dex/merc fluid is fine. Mobil1 ATF, Maxlife, Valvoline MV Import synthetic atf, Castrol or even Supertech HM atf is great just keep it clean and it'll be fine. Lots of acceptable options
 
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