Detergency vs lubrication
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From what I understand oils are blended to be balanced since the detergent and anti wear compete for space. Changing the oil early isn't going to affect anything but your wallet.
Dnewton wrote an article on the homepage you should read. It touches on many subjects concerning wear and oil change intervals.
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Dnewton wrote an article on the homepage you should read. It touches on many subjects concerning wear and oil change intervals.
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Detergents do inhibit additives from contact and 'sticking' to surfaces.
It is one reason non detergent oils are specd for lawnmowers, etc..
Brutal conditions need every swinging particle of additives that they can get.
For normal street cars, we always want detergents!
It is one reason non detergent oils are specd for lawnmowers, etc..
Brutal conditions need every swinging particle of additives that they can get.
For normal street cars, we always want detergents!
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Calcium also has anti-wear properties.
Have a look in the question of the day area.
Does sodium have anti-wear properties?
Calcium also has anti-wear properties.
Have a look in the question of the day area.
Does sodium have anti-wear properties?
This article doesn't seem to offer any good things to say about high Ca levels.
"Heat transfer characteristics of some oils
used for engine cooling
Hosny Z. Abou-Ziyan *
Mech. Power Eng. Dept., Faculty of Engineering, Mattaria, Helwan University, Cairo 11718, Egypt
Received 1 July 2003; accepted 14 October 2003
Available online 13 April 2004
Abstract
This paper reports the results of an experimental investigation of heat transfer from a cast iron test
specimen to engine oils under boiling conditions. The work is aimed at evaluating the thermal characteristics
of some engine oils in contact with high temperature parts in internal combustion engines. Three
mono-grade oils and two multi-grade oils are examined at heat fluxes from about 30 to more than 400 kW/
m2 for bulk temperatures of 40, 60, 80, 100, 125, 150 and 175 C. The considered oils are analyzed and
tested according to some ASTM standards to determine their additives concentration and to obtain some
of their thermophysical properties.
The results indicated that oil additives, oil properties and bulk temperatures have substantial effects on
the oil characteristics. The boiling heat flux, for the best oil, rises by a factor of 1.65 as the bulk temperature
decreases from 175 to 40 C. The mono-grade oils produce superior heat transfer characteristics compared
to those produced by multi-grade oils. The oil with the best additive concentrations produces boiling heat
fluxes up to 4.44 times higher than those produced by some other oils. Comparing the results of the tested
oils revealed that the oil that has the largest concentrations of boron, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc with
low concentration of calcium yields the best heat transport characteristics among the other tested oils.
These additives provide superior detergent and dispersant characteristics, reflected in the large alkalinity
and low corrosivity of the oil. On the other side, calcium has a negative interaction with other additives and
yields an adverse effect on heat transfer characteristics even when it exists in oil with large concentrations of
boron, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc.
2003 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved."
"Heat transfer characteristics of some oils
used for engine cooling
Hosny Z. Abou-Ziyan *
Mech. Power Eng. Dept., Faculty of Engineering, Mattaria, Helwan University, Cairo 11718, Egypt
Received 1 July 2003; accepted 14 October 2003
Available online 13 April 2004
Abstract
This paper reports the results of an experimental investigation of heat transfer from a cast iron test
specimen to engine oils under boiling conditions. The work is aimed at evaluating the thermal characteristics
of some engine oils in contact with high temperature parts in internal combustion engines. Three
mono-grade oils and two multi-grade oils are examined at heat fluxes from about 30 to more than 400 kW/
m2 for bulk temperatures of 40, 60, 80, 100, 125, 150 and 175 C. The considered oils are analyzed and
tested according to some ASTM standards to determine their additives concentration and to obtain some
of their thermophysical properties.
The results indicated that oil additives, oil properties and bulk temperatures have substantial effects on
the oil characteristics. The boiling heat flux, for the best oil, rises by a factor of 1.65 as the bulk temperature
decreases from 175 to 40 C. The mono-grade oils produce superior heat transfer characteristics compared
to those produced by multi-grade oils. The oil with the best additive concentrations produces boiling heat
fluxes up to 4.44 times higher than those produced by some other oils. Comparing the results of the tested
oils revealed that the oil that has the largest concentrations of boron, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc with
low concentration of calcium yields the best heat transport characteristics among the other tested oils.
These additives provide superior detergent and dispersant characteristics, reflected in the large alkalinity
and low corrosivity of the oil. On the other side, calcium has a negative interaction with other additives and
yields an adverse effect on heat transfer characteristics even when it exists in oil with large concentrations of
boron, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc.
2003 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved."
So....how many of us have had engine failures due to calcium in the oil? Another trivial issue for those who have too much time on their hands to worry about.
I think there are bigger things to worry about personally.
The Ca is in solution so it won't be a problem. Within limits Ca compounds are generally benign and it's not a competition thing in the finished motor oil compound solution.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
I think there are bigger things to worry about personally.
Exactly. Plus as noted Ca itself has antiwear properties.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
I think there are bigger things to worry about personally.
Exactly. Plus as noted Ca itself has antiwear properties.
All the Major oils out there on the market have "sensible" blends of additives and you really would be splitting hairs with the differences between them for most of our passenger car driving in NA. If you have racing engine oil they don't use detergents so you don't have to worry about calcium there.
Just use a Major brand of your liking and call it a day.
PS: Don't add anything to it either.
Just use a Major brand of your liking and call it a day.
PS: Don't add anything to it either.
That is why I like to have a list of trusted synthetics that come on sale often.
I would guess if you run a different oil from your stash each oil change it would lessen deposits as you are constantly changing chemistries and would lead to better flushing.
For example, rather than run Pennzoil Platinum all the time, I'd alternate between that and QSUD, as PP is billed as cleaning and QSUD is touted as anti-wear.
I do believe an engine that is too clean isn't of much benefit.
I lean more towards the QSUD add-pack logic I guess if I had to choose. It has some cleaning, and protects engine components very well.
I would guess if you run a different oil from your stash each oil change it would lessen deposits as you are constantly changing chemistries and would lead to better flushing.
For example, rather than run Pennzoil Platinum all the time, I'd alternate between that and QSUD, as PP is billed as cleaning and QSUD is touted as anti-wear.
I do believe an engine that is too clean isn't of much benefit.
I lean more towards the QSUD add-pack logic I guess if I had to choose. It has some cleaning, and protects engine components very well.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
I think you misunderstood, not necessarily "accelerated" wear just higher wear per 1000 miles. For example your iron ppm might be 10 for 3k, but only 12 for a 5k run.
No you're certainly not going to ruin or hurt any engine doing 3k OCI's, but doing 3k OCI's with the likes of Amsoil or Mobil 1 is not gaining you anything either.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
I think you misunderstood, not necessarily "accelerated" wear just higher wear per 1000 miles. For example your iron ppm might be 10 for 3k, but only 12 for a 5k run.
No you're certainly not going to ruin or hurt any engine doing 3k OCI's, but doing 3k OCI's with the likes of Amsoil or Mobil 1 is not gaining you anything either.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
You should also use one of the old toilet paper filters but instead of TP use a wad of $100 bills inside. The more money you spend the better right?
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
You should also use one of the old toilet paper filters but instead of TP use a wad of $100 bills inside. The more money you spend the better right?
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
It's the problem with "Internet reality". There are truths, that develop a golem of their own...
It's pretty well established here that on an oil change, there's a jump in "apparent" wear, when a clean oil picks up "stuff", and the "wear trend" then appears to taper off...it's not wear.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
It's the problem with "Internet reality". There are truths, that develop a golem of their own...
It's pretty well established here that on an oil change, there's a jump in "apparent" wear, when a clean oil picks up "stuff", and the "wear trend" then appears to taper off...it's not wear.
Originally Posted By: Boomer
So....how many of us have had engine failures due to calcium in the oil? Another trivial issue for those who have too much time on their hands to worry about.
People using very high detergent oils (recommended for diesels only generally), can have excessive piston deposits, which can lead to pre-ignition and the like.
So....how many of us have had engine failures due to calcium in the oil? Another trivial issue for those who have too much time on their hands to worry about.
People using very high detergent oils (recommended for diesels only generally), can have excessive piston deposits, which can lead to pre-ignition and the like.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
I didn't explain myself correctly. According to the data aquired when an oil change is performed the new oil strips the old anti-wear layer off and applies it's own and during this time wear metals increase.
So if your a 5000 mile guy,and another guy changes at 10000 miles the guy with the 10000 mile change will have less wear metals per 1000 miles.
Read the article. It includes data.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Clevy
According to his data leaving the oil in as long as it's able to perform cuts down wear metals and more frequent changes actually accelerates wear.
Give er a look. It's very informative
Bogus! I've been changing the oil on my 2007 Civic Si every 3,000 miles of not sooner with Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, etc for 100,000 miles and my UOAs were perfect. Didn't see any accelerated wear.
I didn't explain myself correctly. According to the data aquired when an oil change is performed the new oil strips the old anti-wear layer off and applies it's own and during this time wear metals increase.
So if your a 5000 mile guy,and another guy changes at 10000 miles the guy with the 10000 mile change will have less wear metals per 1000 miles.
Read the article. It includes data.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Artem
Clevy said:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
People using very high detergent oils (recommended for diesels only generally), can have excessive piston deposits, which can lead to pre-ignition and the like.
Has that been mostly with dated API diesel specs or more recent ones? I know you guys in Australia appear to have the mixed blessing of having plenty of old oils on the market along with the new ones.
People using very high detergent oils (recommended for diesels only generally), can have excessive piston deposits, which can lead to pre-ignition and the like.
Has that been mostly with dated API diesel specs or more recent ones? I know you guys in Australia appear to have the mixed blessing of having plenty of old oils on the market along with the new ones.
That makes sense. You meant what you wrote literally - diesel only oils rather than dual rated HDEOS.
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