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How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
Demonstrating problems for repair shops?
- Thread starter The motor guy
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One time I bought a mower and spent $8000.00 on it and I had a couple of simple questions, then it turns out that they messed around with the mower for an hour and wanted to charge me $50.00 When it was under warranty. All I wanted to know was whether or not I was pulling the choke lever out enough and is this red wire supposed to be hooked up? Is that why the battery keeps dying?
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
I think it stems from so many Professional DIY'ers adamantly "knowing" a problem and having a mechanic correct the problem the Pro-DIY'er knows; which ended up not being the problem from the get go. Now the mechanic has to charge for the "fix" and still has to go about diagnosing and correcting the real problem. Now the Pro-DIY customer is upset at being wrong and having to pay twice.
Some of us are humble enough to bring a car to a mechanic and say "I think it's X because Y is causing Z" and trust the mechanic to take that into consideration while performing a more thorough diagnosis.
The reason I chime in here is I just went through this with a buddy of mine concerning my Jeep. Jeep was losing coolant very quickly. I was for sure I had incorrectly installed a timing cover gasket wrong, even though I went through the proper steps per the FSM. Take it to my buddy, who's worked at several shops over the years but is currently transitioning to another field, and we start the tear down but he wanted to test something real quick. Sure enough, his process exposed the real culprit: one of the intake gaskets had split, causing coolant to spew out onto the timing cover. Was a neat situation because he could see why I thought what I thought, while he demonstrated he knows a thing or two, and we were both able to work together and fix the real issue and now I have a proper running Jeep.
Although I am sure some shops use that as an excuse to make a couple extra bucks.
How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
I think it stems from so many Professional DIY'ers adamantly "knowing" a problem and having a mechanic correct the problem the Pro-DIY'er knows; which ended up not being the problem from the get go. Now the mechanic has to charge for the "fix" and still has to go about diagnosing and correcting the real problem. Now the Pro-DIY customer is upset at being wrong and having to pay twice.
Some of us are humble enough to bring a car to a mechanic and say "I think it's X because Y is causing Z" and trust the mechanic to take that into consideration while performing a more thorough diagnosis.
The reason I chime in here is I just went through this with a buddy of mine concerning my Jeep. Jeep was losing coolant very quickly. I was for sure I had incorrectly installed a timing cover gasket wrong, even though I went through the proper steps per the FSM. Take it to my buddy, who's worked at several shops over the years but is currently transitioning to another field, and we start the tear down but he wanted to test something real quick. Sure enough, his process exposed the real culprit: one of the intake gaskets had split, causing coolant to spew out onto the timing cover. Was a neat situation because he could see why I thought what I thought, while he demonstrated he knows a thing or two, and we were both able to work together and fix the real issue and now I have a proper running Jeep.
Although I am sure some shops use that as an excuse to make a couple extra bucks.
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They can fix it their way I just want to be able to demonstrate the problem.
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
They can fix it their way I just want to be able to demonstrate the problem.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, what do you mean demonstrate? Like did you take the mower to a shop, show them the issue, and were just completely ignored?
They can fix it their way I just want to be able to demonstrate the problem.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, what do you mean demonstrate? Like did you take the mower to a shop, show them the issue, and were just completely ignored?
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
This sounds exactly like my '02 Ram & its dying VP44 injection pump (HO Cummins, under warranty)-FOUR Dodge dealerships later, somebody decided to just go ahead & replace it (after I ran it 50 miles pulling a trailer with the lift/transfer pump disconnected to MAKE it throw a pump code!)...
How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
This sounds exactly like my '02 Ram & its dying VP44 injection pump (HO Cummins, under warranty)-FOUR Dodge dealerships later, somebody decided to just go ahead & replace it (after I ran it 50 miles pulling a trailer with the lift/transfer pump disconnected to MAKE it throw a pump code!)...
Because car problems have a built-in automatic stealth mode shop detection system. Anytime your car is at a garage, it stops doing whatever was wrong with it, so they can never find the issue!
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Pretty much. I think in that particular situation their wasn't even a need to take the mower off the trailer.
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My dad gave me a '76 Nova that had a "heavy duty" suspension that was actually quite fragile...he warned me that there was a bolt that tended to shear and leave one of the rear wheels sort of floating around, think he said it connected the axle to the leaf springs somehow??
Sure enough, I had the car in Dallas for about six months and suddenly the car seemed to want to pull a quick J turn when I went to make a left. I stopped as soon as I could and could see the right rear wheel was not sitting in the proper position in its wheel well.
I took it to a Chief Auto Parts attached to a 7-11 because it was right across the street from where I lived, and I even knew at the time it was sort of a dumb idea but I could take it there on a Saturday and ride my bike while they were working instead of missing work. I came back from my ride and the shop's chief gave me some bizarro explanation for my steering problem even though I had told him exactly what my dad had told me.
"Well, I think the problem is that the right rear wheel is moving around because the bolt I told you about is broken."
"No, that's not possible, the wheel can't be moving!"
Luckily, the car was on the lift right next to us and this was before customers were banned from shop floors.
I walked over to the Nova, grabbed the right rear wheel, and slammed it back and forth in the well!
The chief and his mechanic watched me with their mouths hanging wide open...
Their repair only worked for about a month, so I called Chief and they told me to bring it back in after the RIGHT bolt for the car came in! They had just found something laying around that they thought was close enough and jammed it in there.
They put the "right" bolt in and I never went back to Chief!
Sure enough, I had the car in Dallas for about six months and suddenly the car seemed to want to pull a quick J turn when I went to make a left. I stopped as soon as I could and could see the right rear wheel was not sitting in the proper position in its wheel well.
I took it to a Chief Auto Parts attached to a 7-11 because it was right across the street from where I lived, and I even knew at the time it was sort of a dumb idea but I could take it there on a Saturday and ride my bike while they were working instead of missing work. I came back from my ride and the shop's chief gave me some bizarro explanation for my steering problem even though I had told him exactly what my dad had told me.
"Well, I think the problem is that the right rear wheel is moving around because the bolt I told you about is broken."
"No, that's not possible, the wheel can't be moving!"
Luckily, the car was on the lift right next to us and this was before customers were banned from shop floors.
I walked over to the Nova, grabbed the right rear wheel, and slammed it back and forth in the well!
The chief and his mechanic watched me with their mouths hanging wide open...
Their repair only worked for about a month, so I called Chief and they told me to bring it back in after the RIGHT bolt for the car came in! They had just found something laying around that they thought was close enough and jammed it in there.
They put the "right" bolt in and I never went back to Chief!
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part of it is the extra work to listen and deal with you.
the advisor in the front has to write up all you said in your weird impercise description and try to get it down. especially if you're prone to speak in jargon.
sometimes if you write down what you want to say, or have pictues and print it out on paper, he can just slip your paper into the sleeve (or with your keys) and then theyve got it.
if you can able to separate what you observe is happening from your suggestions on how to fix it, even better.
the advisor in the front has to write up all you said in your weird impercise description and try to get it down. especially if you're prone to speak in jargon.
sometimes if you write down what you want to say, or have pictues and print it out on paper, he can just slip your paper into the sleeve (or with your keys) and then theyve got it.
if you can able to separate what you observe is happening from your suggestions on how to fix it, even better.
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Not finding a problem means they don't want this type of business. Hard to diagnose stuff is more likely to generate large diagnostic bills, come-backs for misdiagnosed issues, and unhappy customers. Warranty work either pays nothing or a small fraction of the shop rate, so best avoided when the techs can be doing more profitable bread-n-butter work.
Service writers are a whole 'nother ball of wax. Some come from with a parts desk background, some are ex-mechanics, some know next to nothing about cars. None of them want to hear theories or spend time explaining how systems work. They just want to know symptoms and then let the Tech take it from there. Everything else is a waste of time, they could be pumping through more compliant, paying customers.
Service writers are a whole 'nother ball of wax. Some come from with a parts desk background, some are ex-mechanics, some know next to nothing about cars. None of them want to hear theories or spend time explaining how systems work. They just want to know symptoms and then let the Tech take it from there. Everything else is a waste of time, they could be pumping through more compliant, paying customers.
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
I know there are some dumb customers out there, of course. But there are also an equal number of know-it-all technicians who think they know everything, but know nothing. If a place won't let me take the time to demonstrate (aka, show them in person) the problem and let them see exactly the conditions it occurs.. Then they don't get any of my $$$ because a place like that has a closed-mind. They can't possibly know everything, they're not God.
Plus, maybe, just maybe, they'll learn something new from a customer. Imagine that.
How come shops don't let you demonstrate a problem? They just want you to drop it off just so they can charge you a $75 diagnostic fee to not find anything wrong.
I know there are some dumb customers out there, of course. But there are also an equal number of know-it-all technicians who think they know everything, but know nothing. If a place won't let me take the time to demonstrate (aka, show them in person) the problem and let them see exactly the conditions it occurs.. Then they don't get any of my $$$ because a place like that has a closed-mind. They can't possibly know everything, they're not God.
Plus, maybe, just maybe, they'll learn something new from a customer. Imagine that.
+1 on raytseng and hangfire's comments.
My shop's asked me to demonstrate problems before, mainly because I bring it in before something's fully broken, or is intermittent. Sometimes the hardest thing to do as a customer is figure out a repeatable pattern for an intermittent.
My shop's asked me to demonstrate problems before, mainly because I bring it in before something's fully broken, or is intermittent. Sometimes the hardest thing to do as a customer is figure out a repeatable pattern for an intermittent.
If a shop doesn't listen to what you have to say, they're not worth dealing with.
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
If a shop doesn't listen to what you have to say, they're not worth dealing with.
this is true, yet at the same time the posters go back to walmart or jiffylube because its cheap and complain about it.
if you are wanting good service you should expect to pay a fair price for it and not expect it to be free
If a shop doesn't listen to what you have to say, they're not worth dealing with.
this is true, yet at the same time the posters go back to walmart or jiffylube because its cheap and complain about it.
if you are wanting good service you should expect to pay a fair price for it and not expect it to be free
Had this happen to me, wife got stranded because her starter quit, (later she's like oh yeah, sometimes it grinds and doesn't start the car, I forgot to tell you...), finally it got to the point where it just spun, wouldn't engage the gear at all no matter how many times she tried. Had it towed to a shop, they did the whole "we have to diagnose it first" thing, didn't end up paying for it since they did the repair but was annoying because I had to wait for them to look at it, call me and tell me yeah you need a new starter (I knew that...), wait for me to call back and approve the repair, and the whole thing made the work take an extra day.
Lived in an apartment at the time, so couldn't just do the work myself. Nowhere to actually do the work, and they [censored] at me for even vacuuming out the car in the parking lot.
Lived in an apartment at the time, so couldn't just do the work myself. Nowhere to actually do the work, and they [censored] at me for even vacuuming out the car in the parking lot.
Honestly, some customers expect too much. Too much time, too much expertise - the customer that has a realistic expectation of his mechanic and places that above their own ideas is a rare one. I'm generally more sympathetic to the customer's plight, and to answer from that mindset, it's a rare shop whose foremost concern is the customer's benefit and well-being. People are used to that and, unfortunately, accept it as something that's not going to change and continue taking their cars to businesses that charge before they work, and then greater than the work they do.
I've had several vehicles lately that required test driving anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes to diagnose or troubleshoot the problem which was intermittent. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how a business should charge for that time, account for the gas burned, etc. Some times the car doesn't even have enough gas in it to drive around or sit and run for an hour. That's also more opportunity for it to get wrecked or suffer damage, like when I drove a Dakota back to my shop to fix the brakes and found it had 1.5 qt. of oil in it. Not remotely related to the work the customer asked for but if I'd locked it up, might some customers not have laid blame on me?
I've had several vehicles lately that required test driving anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes to diagnose or troubleshoot the problem which was intermittent. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how a business should charge for that time, account for the gas burned, etc. Some times the car doesn't even have enough gas in it to drive around or sit and run for an hour. That's also more opportunity for it to get wrecked or suffer damage, like when I drove a Dakota back to my shop to fix the brakes and found it had 1.5 qt. of oil in it. Not remotely related to the work the customer asked for but if I'd locked it up, might some customers not have laid blame on me?
Originally Posted By: Alex_V
I've had several vehicles lately that required test driving anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes to diagnose or troubleshoot the problem which was intermittent. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how a business should charge for that time, account for the gas burned, etc.
Tell the customer that to drive it for 90 minutes you'll have to either use it for parts runs, or charge them the time.
I've had several vehicles lately that required test driving anywhere from 20 to 90 minutes to diagnose or troubleshoot the problem which was intermittent. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how a business should charge for that time, account for the gas burned, etc.
Tell the customer that to drive it for 90 minutes you'll have to either use it for parts runs, or charge them the time.
If a customer wants to show me what they think is wrong that's fine by me. If they say it's not this or that because I've fixed those, that's the first place I look - their fix is usually the fault. Oh yeah, and I love those ones with the low fuel warning light on, I can't even be sure if I'll get back from a road test.
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