Delvac 1, 1928 miles, Dodge Viper - Flakes in K&N

[Ron-Indy]

1996 Dodge Viper GTS w/ 19k miles overall. Change oil every 2k miles or so as it takes 18 ~ 24 months to get there and I don't want to run the oil longer than that. K&N oil filter with Filtermag. Have run Delvac for last 4 years or so, Mobil 1 10w-30 prior. Owned since new, never abused, never hit rev limiter but has seen drag (3x), autocross (2x) and road course (1x) over it's 11 year life. This oil change saw one day of autocross activity only. Oil sent out to Blackstone for analysis and I will post as soon as received but thought I'd get a jump on your thoughts with these pictures.

Always open oil filters and have never seen these flakes. Didn't notice initially so there might be some foreign particles in the mix, but the gold flakes are from within the filter. Can't feel them but easy to see especially given their reflectivity. The pix of the inside of the can isn't representative of the flake density. They pooled on the low spot as I let it sit.

What is gold colored in an engine, valve guides? Rod / main bearings? There are no cam bearings in this engine and it has cast iron cylinder sleeves, forged crank, rods and pistons, aluminum heads & block.

Appreciate comments - Thanks

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[kd5byb]

Wow, that's very odd. Never seen anything like this in a filter I've cut open. That first picture almost looks like the flake is plastic in nature.

Any chance that you've got an air induction leak and the particles are fine sand covered in oil giving them they gold color? Loose or missing oil filter cap, maybe?

Those are the only things I can think of and even then both are wild guesses that are probably wrong...

later,
b

 

[wavinwayne]

Looks like brass or bronze to me. Those metals are found in some types of bushings/bearings. Terry Dyson would be the man to ask on this one.

 

[Ron-Indy]

That first one does have a plastic look, but given the reflectivity of most of the particles, I have to believe that most are metallic in nature. Car has two quite large air filters, in this case Fram paper pleated with 1/2" foam cover. Same filters as previous UOA's. Agree the oil could be coloring them though and will try some solvent. The material doesn't seem to be magnetic, so they're not iron but I suppose it could be aluminium tinted by the oil. No issue with oil fill cap or any other induction issues that I'm aware of.

Will ask Terry once Blackstone reports. Thanks guys.

 

[JAG]

Get those particles onto a clean hard surface and take a little knife to them to see if you can cut them and if so, how easily. That will help narrow down what kind of material they are.

There's a chance they were in the filter when you bought it. Just keep that in mind.

 

[Pablo]

Indeed - how hard are those chunks?

 

[Ron-Indy]

Good call guys. The majority of the flakes are in fact soft and brittle when cut with an Exacto knife. When crushed, they turn to mud. Closer inspection of the filter media itself still shows a variety of sparkling flakes, slightly smaller than the brittle ones. They are harder and do "cut" though after bending. The brittle flakes seem like toasted white paint and since the K&N case is white, perhaps they are. The smaller metal flakes still seem light gold in color rather than silver.

Could it be that the paint chips alarmed me into closer inspection and that whatever metallic flakes there are is normal? Without the paint chips, I'd never have noticed the metal flakes. The lowest picture is fairly representative of the flake distribution in the media, one shiny metal one and a few paint chips per that media area.

Would be nice if it was already inside the case when I installed, though cause for concern on the QC side.

Thanks again

 

[Ron-Indy]

Well the results are in and it appears that either:

A) It's normal oil filter debris that I just never noticed before
B) It's not normal oil filter debris but UOA doesn't pick it up
C) It's not normal oil filter debris but rather oil filter manufacturing debris
D) It's none of the above

I personally have no clue.......

 

[Merkava_4]

Quote:
When crushed, they turn to mud.


That puts a doubt in my mind of the flakes being metallic. I'm thinking they could be derived from a numerous array of engine assembly compounds such as gasket maker, gasket sealant, or thread sealant.

Your wear numbers are certainly not indicative of any catastrophic bearing failure either.

 

[Ron-Indy]

Yes, I'd agree with that. I'd expect some anomaly in the readings if it was part of my engine inside that filter.

Though it's never happened before, perhaps paint chips got in during the filter opening operation?

 

[JAG]

It's now as clear as mud what the particles were.
Next time sand off the paint prior to cutting open the can. Also, maybe buy one of those special oil filter can cutters which may create less metal particles than other methods. Hopefully you won't see this again.

 

[Merkava_4]

Quote:
perhaps paint chips got in during the filter opening operation?


- That's a possibility I suppose but aren't K&N filters predominantly white?
- What's the cut line look like around the filter can?
- Is the paint flaking off next to the line?
- Do you need to replace the cutting blades on your filter cutter?

 

[benjamming]

1.5% fuel from Blackstone! Wow. That's the highest I have ever seen from them although others on here may have seen 1 or 2 that have been higher.

Their should be values are off. Fuel should be < 0.5% by their testing methods and insolubles should much less than 0.8. If you have > 0.8 insolubles reading, look out.

 

[Ron-Indy]

Not sure about the prior UOA 1.5% fuel. Nothing unusual in that run. Perhaps Blackstone was off that day?

I'll have to look for a new cutter wheel, though the other UOA I listed (Chrysler Town & Country) used the same cutter a few hours later with no issues.

Any idea where to procure cut wheels?

There still was some quantity of very small metal flakes. If they were engine wear, would that show up in the UOA or are "out of suspension" particles invisible to the analysis?

Thank you for your input

 

[benjamming]

A UOA won't detect particles greater than 5 or 10 micron.

 

[DmanWho]

It's hard to tell from the pic's, but those particles look newly introduced in comparison to the rest of the filter. Maybe the particles match what the filter is made from... Did you compare it to the center part of the cut in the filter?

 

[Ron-Indy]

Definitely not from the filter internally as I cut open another the same day and they did not look similar. The paint like particles could have been introduced in some unknown way by the can opening process but the small metal particle, though far fewing in number, are of an unknown origin. The filter media in the center or back has nothing like this.

Thanks